Will the NN4 support a 5D MkII and 24-70 lens?

[hindenhaag]

Frank,

I rechecked for D700, the result will be you can use only use zoom 50 and zoom 70. This lens asks a very long rail for zoom 24 and 28. You have even problems with the normal M1 170mm upper rail which is too short. You have to go for a 210mm upper rail.

So if I would be you, I'd make a choice between NN5 RD16 +NN acra style clamp or M1-L with a 210mm upper rail.

Heinz

[Frankster]

Heinz,

Thanks for the info. The NN4 would not be practical for use with this lens, so I'll have to choose between the NN5 and M1-L.

An earlier post I made asking about clamping was held back for a day or two by the group's moderator and as a result you may not have seen it. Since the NN4 is no longer an option, I will address any remaining questions here.

I may want to use the RRS clamp shown below (with optional reducer bushing) on the upper rail instead of the NN Arca style clamp (ASQRC-2).

B2 LR II: 60mm LR clamp with dual mount
http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductD...ith-dual-mount

The only reason I mention this is because I'm concerned about how well the ASQRC-2 would fit the RRS L-plate. RRS says they have no experience with your clamp and could not vouch for the quality of fit on their L-plate. Although I would not have to worry about the RRS clamp holding the camera's RRS L-plate insecurely, my new worry would be how securely the upper rail on your products would hold the RSS clamp, particularly with regard to twisting.

Question #1 -- Can that clamp be fastened securely (without fear of twisting) to the upper rail of both the NN5 and the M1-L? This is important to me as it could influence which model I choose.

Question #1a -- Should I decide to use the RRS clamp on the upper rail, can the NN5 and the M1-L be ordered without their respective camera mounting hardware (to reduce my cost)?

Question #2 -- Am I correct to assume that the NN5 already comes with a 210mm upper rail?

Question #3 -- Could the M1-L be ordered with the 210mm upper rail replacing the 170mm rail it normally comes with (a difference of $10), or would it have to be ordered separately thus increasing my cost by $75?

Question #4 -- Although an M1L RD16 is shown in your product selector, I can only find M1 units for no rotators. What is the pricing for M1-L with RD16?

Question #5 -- Although I've read the NN5 will "Support high resolution mosaics or giga-pixel panos" and can use up to a 200mm lens, its upper rotator appears to be limited to 15 degree click stops. Would it be accurate to say that this is functionally the same upper rotator found on the NN4 and that only the M1-L would offer an upper rotator better suited for lenses over 100mm?

Question #6 -- Could either the NN5 or the M1-L be used with the camera mounted on the upper rail in landscape orientation (very easy with L-plate on camera)?

Sorry for all the questions.

Regards,
Frank

[nick fan]

Question #1 -- Can that clamp be fastened securely (without fear of twisting) to the upper rail of both the NN5 and the M1-L? This is important to me as it could influence which model I choose.

Answer: The Arca Swiss is a hard solid contact. I never heard it could twist in any brand of AS compatible system.


Question #1a -- Should I decide to use the RRS clamp on the upper rail, can the NN5 and the M1-L be ordered without their respective camera mounting hardware (to reduce my cost)?

Answer: for NN5, you still need a camera plate or a thinner rail plate. you can swap the plate free of charge if the dealer have the rail plate in stock. For M1, our clamp is part of the system, you need it. RRS clamp will need more parts to fix it on our rail. You can use RRS rail and clamp instead but you lose the possibility of using integrated rail stops. the NPP settings will be different too.


Question #2 -- Am I correct to assume that the NN5 already comes with a 210mm upper rail?


Answer: upper rail is 190mm. max NPP adjustment is 148mm. Design of NN5 and M1 is different, the length are not directly comparable.


Question #3 -- Could the M1-L be ordered with the 210mm upper rail replacing the 170mm rail it normally comes with (a difference of $10), or would it have to be ordered separately thus increasing my cost by $75?


Answer: you just replace the rail with additional $10.


Question #4 -- Although an M1L RD16 is shown in your product selector, I can only find M1 units for no rotators. What is the pricing for M1-L with RD16?


Answer: we are offering 25% discount for Pre-production M1 no rotator. RD16 has normal retail price. You just buy it separately at $199.95.


Question #5 -- Although I've read the NN5 will "Support high resolution mosaics or giga-pixel panos" and can use up to a 200mm lens, its upper rotator appears to be limited to 15 degree click stops. Would it be accurate to say that this is functionally the same upper rotator found on the NN4 and that only the M1-L would offer an upper rotator better suited for lenses over 100mm?

Answer: 15 deg stops in NN5 can be disabled on the fly. you can use at any interval without the stop. NN4 15 deg stops can't be disabled/ bypassed.


Question #6 -- Could either the NN5 or the M1-L be used with the camera mounted on the upper rail in landscape orientation (very easy with L-plate on camera)?


Answer: yes, with L-plate. if you want to shift from portrait to landscape back and forth quickly, Go for M1. rail adjustment is easier and smoother for M1. Plus it can be memorized with integrated rail stop. The integrated rail stop can potentially memorize a lot more settings than stop plates in NN5.

Nick

[Vincèn]

rail adjustment is easier and smoother for M1. Plus it can be memorized with integrated rail stop. The integrated rail stop can potentially memorize a lot more settings than stop plates in NN5.

some pictures of that rail stop for M1 rails ?

Thanks,

Vincèn

[nick fan]

some pictures of that rail stop for M1 rails ?

Thanks,

Vincèn

soon. with the final production M1 and thr rest of accessories.

Nick

[hindenhaag]

Hi Frank,

Thx Nick who has answered a lot of your questions already I only have an add-on: Though I know the systems very well, I re checked the Systems because of RRS comment about the twist for you: There is no problem to use RRS plates on NN Arca Style Clamps. Rock solid, no twist at all. Same with Wimberley and Kirk Plates and NN products, no twist at all. I tested my 300s RRS L-plate on NN Arca Style clamp for NN5 and the Systems integrated clamps of M1 for you. No twist at all.

Regards,
Heinz

[hindenhaag]

Hi Frank,

Some pics may explain your questions a little bit better:



To use the L-Plate in Landscape mode, you have to use the vertical rail on the left hand side of the rotator, normal use would be on the right side. Use on NN5 is the same set up as on NN4 NN3.

Heinz

[Frankster]

Thank you Nick Fan & Heinz.

First I should make clear what I meant about twisting. I think you both were left with the mistaken impression that I was worried about the dovetail clamp itself twisting open.

The twisting I'm talking about would be where the clamp physically joins to the upper rail, not where the clamp's dovetail joins to the camera L-plate dovetail. IMO Twisting at the dovetail joint itself is not as likely as, for example, slippage would be. (more on that later)

As much as I've tried to get a good look at the manner in which your upper rail holds the clamp, the best I can see from the images I've viewed is that just one 1/4"-20 screw is used. I don't see anything else in the way of twist prevention, such as a set screw or a pin that would stop that single screw from becoming a potential pivot (twisting) point. When I look at an image of the bottom surface of your QRC-40A clamp for the M1 (the surface that faces and is fastened against the upper rail), I see all types of holes and reliefs unlike the top surface where only the 1/4"-20 hole is visible. I've presumed these recesses to be places into which a set screw, a pin, or something unknown to me on the rail's mating surface would fit, thus preventing the clamp from twisting by the weight of my long & heavy lens on the camera. Here's links to the QRC-40A and the RRS clamp, look at the images for the rear sides to see what I mean.

http://store.nodalninja.com/products...pper-Rail.html
http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductD...ith-dual-mount

To sum up, it's not the dovetail itself I'm worried about twisting, it's where the clamp screws onto the upper rail with one screw.

Question #1a -- Should I decide to use the RRS clamp on the upper rail, can the NN5 and the M1-L be ordered without their respective camera mounting hardware (to reduce my cost)?

Answer: for NN5, you still need a camera plate or a thinner rail plate. you can swap the plate free of charge if the dealer have the rail plate in stock. For M1, our clamp is part of the system, you need it. RRS clamp will need more parts to fix it on our rail. You can use RRS rail and clamp instead but you lose the possibility of using integrated rail stops. the NPP settings will be different too.

With regard to the M1, this is kind of like what I was just talking about. From looking at the rear of your clamp and the RRS clamp in the links above, both have a 1/4"-20 screw hole in the center. But because I couldn't find anything on this web site that shows the upper rail "without" the clamp already attached to it, I have no idea how the two surfaces actually butt against each other. All I know is that there's 1 screw, which in my view could spell trouble without something else to prevent twist.

Question #7 -- Could you please elaborate on the parts needed to fix the RRS clamp to your rail?

I'm guessing/hoping the parts are intended to address the very same twisting issue I'm concerned about, but admit I'm still left somewhat confused. You said the clamp (QRC-40A) is part of the system and I need it.

Question #8 -- Do you mean I need to 'buy' it with the system even if it will be replaced by a RRS clamp, or do you mean I need to 'use' it with the system and adapt the RRS clamp so it will fit into your clamp?

FYI The latter is unacceptable, although I'm not thrilled about spending $50 for something that will see no use.

I really don't want to use a RRS rail, but do want the option to use their clamp because it's a lever-type clamp and because it would remove all doubt over the "quality of fit" issue they raised. Although RRS didn't elaborate over what they mean by "fit", I took them to mean there's a potential for slippage (not twisting) in the dovetail.

Note that from this point forward we're talking about slippage. I hope by the time I'm done I've given you a better understanding of a)why I might want to use the RRS clamp to avoid "slippage" at the dovetail, and b)why I'm so concerned about fastening it to your rail so as to avoid "twisting" on the 1/4"-20 screw.

Having said all that, it seems both of you have addressed twist by pointing to the dovetail fit while my concern with the dovetail fit is actually slippage:-) It seems reasonable to me not to expect you to vouch for the RRS product anymore than they would want to vouch for yours. But for me, the guy stuck in the middle, this is a real concern as it can put my camera at risk.

Another point I've considered is the greater potential for "inadvertent" slippage when a screw-type clamp is used as opposed to a positive locking lever-type clamp. Given that I don't see a lever-type clamp offered for the M1, even if the Arca clamp didn't have any slippage when the thumb screw was "sufficiently" tightened I'd still have reason to opt for the RRS clamp simply by virtue of it's lever-type clamping.

Questions #9 -- What are your thoughts on slippage with your clamp and the RRS L-plate?

Questions #10 -- Do you have a lever-type clamp for the M1 even though I saw none listed under M1 accessories?

In the end I will have to decide which clamping best addresses my concerns. And right now I'm leaning heavily toward the RRS clamp, provided it can be fixed to your upper rail without fear of twisting.

Question #5 -- Although I've read the NN5 will "Support high resolution mosaics or giga-pixel panos" and can use up to a 200mm lens, its upper rotator appears to be limited to 15 degree click stops. Would it be accurate to say that this is functionally the same upper rotator found on the NN4 and that only the M1-L would offer an upper rotator better suited for lenses over 100mm?

Answer: 15 deg stops in NN5 can be disabled on the fly. you can use at any interval without the stop. NN4 15 deg stops can't be disabled/ bypassed.

Question #11 -- I know the M1 has 7.5 degree stops, but can it be disabled like the NN5 and positioned at any interval?

Heinz, thanks for posing those pics. They are very helpful.

Question #12 -- I noticed in all the M1 pics that it uses an Arca clamp to mount to the RD-16. Can the M1 bottom rail be attached directly to the RD-16 without using an intermediate clamp (look at your NN5 pics to see what I mean)?

Regards,
Frank

[hindenhaag]

Frank,

I believe both of us understood you that you refer to the twist of clamps to the NN hardware itself, the upper rail for example. We were not talking about a "twist inside the clamps to camera plates". So we got you.

Concerning the M1, to understand that there are several "Anti Twist Installations" just read the installation guide for Pre Production models which do not come assembled. Have a look to number 1, 8, 11, all these are anti twist screws installed in the system.

http://www.nodalninja.com/Manuals/M1...lation_QRG.pdf

And believe me, I have an M1 and I tested it very critically specially about "twist". It is rock solid. So once again, to use your L-plate on R1, just use the normal hardware of M1. There is no need for an RRS Clamp! I will be the last to say anything against RRS products, people who know me a little bit longer know that I recommend what is needed to reach your goal even when it needs something else than NN Products. I am a normal user, so I am free to recommend what I know and what I am experienced to, using NN as well as RRS, Wimberley or Kirk Stuff. You get my personal advice based on a long experience and a lot of equipment.

NN Arca Style Clamp for NN3 NN4 NN5 has a set of grooves at the back of the clamp, which inserts into the upper rail "U-Type" construction and serve as solid "Anti Twist" design.

I'll send a pic tomorrow. When you want to use the RRS clamp on the upper rail, you will miss these guidances cause the RRS Clamp is flat at its back. Because of this you have to add a NN camera plate to RRS to get an "Anti Twist", so you are only getting more trouble by using the RRS clamp than simply using the NN Arca Style clamp on NN3 NN4 NN5. This is why I do not recommend the RRS clamp, because there are enough "Anti Twist Mechanisms" build into system which you do not know about cause you do not know the system personally.

Q9: quality to fit, same as you place a RRS Plate to a RRS clamp. And I have tested this with own RRS equipment.

Q10: there is no lever type clamp with NN products.

Q11: No possibility to disable the 7.5° interval on M1. Only on NN5, up to 2.5°xx.

Q12: the difference between NN5 NN4 NN3 construction and M1 is that they use fixed lower and upper rails fixed to the lower and upper rotator. M1 in normal use needs the rails to slide inside the clamps to be fixed to the lower and upper rail settings.

Th clamp on top of RD16 is fixed with two Anti twist screws and a vertical M6 screw to the rotator as described in the manual.

Regards,
Heinz

[Frankster]

Thank you Heinz, I really appreciate your help and respect your experience with these units.

Concerning the M1, to understand that there are several "Anti Twist Installations" just read the installation guide for Pre Production models which do not come assembled. Have a look to number 1, 8, 11, all these are anti twist screws installed in the system.

BINGO on the #11 M3 screw, that's the twist stopper:-) Judging from its position, its head would nest inside the slot in the rail. Is that correct?

You're probably right that there is no need for an RRS Clamp. But I have to plan my contingencies for areas of this purchase that I am uneasy with. If (presumably a big if) I don't feel good about using the Arca clamp and can't replace it with a RRS clamp, I'm sh*t outta luck. Nobody I know wants to spend $500 to $1000 and end up disappointed because they knowingly overlooked of such a detail.

At least I know that a RRS clamp could be adapted to fit, though I suspect the parts Nick Fan mentioned would be one M3 screw plus the machine work needed to drill & tap the screw hole into the clamp. At least that's the way it looks judging from the .pdf you were kind enough to provide a link for.

NN Arca Style Clamp for NN3 NN4 NN5 has a set of grooves at the back of the clamp, which inserts into the upper rail "U-Type" construction and serve as solid "Anti Twist" design.

I'll send a pic tomorrow. When you want to use the RRS clamp on the upper rail, you will miss these guidances cause the RRS Clamp is flat at its back. Because of this you have to add a NN camera plate to RRS to get an "Anti Twist", so you are only getting more trouble by using the RRS clamp than simply using the NN Arca Style clamp on NN3 NN4 NN5. This is why I do not recommend the RRS clamp, because there are enough "Anti Twist Mechanisms" build into system which you do not know about cause you do not know the system personally.

Q9: quality to fit, same as you place a RRS Plate to a RRS clamp. And I have tested this with own RRS equipment.

OK, I'll look for your pics though I'm leaning toward the M1-L. The back of the clamp for the M1 looks flat, as does the rail and the RRS clamp, and it seems the guidance is provided solely by the M3 screw head in the rail slot. I would think any competent local machine shop could accurately align, position, drill and tap a screw hole in the RRS clamp. What do you think?

If that is all that is really needed in order to use the RRS clamp then I have the contingency plan I need. However, I have an appreciation for your rounded experience with products from different manufacturers, and because of that will only consider a RRS clamp after trying the Arca style first. Both you and Nick Fan seem to be in agreement on that, I trust I won't be disappointed. But just in case I'm wrong at least I have a plan:-)

Q10: there is no lever type clamp with NN products.

I was thinking more along the lines of the clamps with levers shown in the below link.....
http://store.nodalninja.com/categori...7%7D5L-series/

I realize they aren't for the M1, but one clamp on the M1 accessories page doesn't have an image or a sufficient description so I thought perhaps it might have a similar lever, or one would become available later.

But now my curiosity grows. Do those levers provide positive locking, such as having two positions - locked & unlocked? If you have an RRS lever clamp then you know what I mean, it "snaps" positively into a locked position. It occurred to me that the lever shown in the NN clamps may just be a rotary thumb screw with a handle and still need to be turned in the same manner, without actually "snapping" into a locked position.

Regards,
Frank

[hindenhaag]

Frank,

have a look to NN new Rental program. You can rent hardware besides other reasons to test the equipment before you by it. May be a good idea to contact the store via phone.

http://www.nodalninja.com/forum/show...rental-program

Of course you can try to find a machine shop to add a M3 screw to the RRS clamp. This would be much easier when you have the hardware at home to check the fit of RRS to NN.

# 11 m3 screw: that's right.

Cheers,
Heinz

[nick fan]

Question #7 -- Could you please elaborate on the parts needed to fix the RRS clamp to your rail?

Drill a hole and tape a M3 socket on your clamp for anti-twisting. install a M3 hex screw machined to ~4.95mm in diameter.
Or make a stop plate that match with the RRS clamp.

Question #8 -- Do you mean I need to 'buy' it with the system even if it will be replaced by a RRS clamp, or do you mean I need to 'use' it with the system and adapt the RRS clamp so it will fit into your clamp?

You can ask your reseller to add/deduct items in the package. They have prices of individual items.

Questions #9 -- What are your thoughts on slippage with your clamp and the RRS L-plate?

Given the surface area of contact, I don't think it will be a problem.

Questions #10 -- Do you have a lever-type clamp for the M1 even though I saw none listed under M1 accessories?

In the future.

Question #12 -- I noticed in all the M1 pics that it uses an Arca clamp to mount to the RD-16. Can the M1 bottom rail be attached directly to the RD-16 without using an intermediate clamp (look at your NN5 pics to see what I mean)?

not intended. But adaptable. Not pretty.

I was thinking more along the lines of the clamps with levers shown in the below link.....
http://store.nodalninja.com/categori...7%7D5L-series/

I realize they aren't for the M1, but one clamp on the M1 accessories page doesn't have an image or a sufficient description so I thought perhaps it might have a similar lever, or one would become available later.

But now my curiosity grows. Do those levers provide positive locking, such as having two positions - locked & unlocked? If you have an RRS lever clamp then you know what I mean, it "snaps" positively into a locked position. It occurred to me that the lever shown in the NN clamps may just be a rotary thumb screw with a handle and still need to be turned in the same manner, without actually "snapping" into a locked position.

the lever in use is not a QR type. It just acts as a handle for the screw. A lever instead of a big knob helps to keep the clamp as thin as possible.


Nick

[Frankster]

Thanks again to both of you for your time and patience.

The rental is certainly an option, but if my figures are correct I don't think it will be necessary.

I have only one more question to make sure I've correctly estimated the use of your products with my equipment. Since I don't want to make calculations every time I use the panohead, I've made a reference table to make life easier for myself, and to pre-visualize my use of the products.

The table contains only the focal lengths I intend to use (for the lenses I own), and only the panohead settings I will need for those focal lengths. The table may be unconventional but it is meant to be an at-a-glance reference customized for the RD-16 lower rotator and the M1-L upper rotator.

QUESTION -- Could you please look at two of the values in my table (one under the RD-16 column and another under the M1-L column) and confirm that the % overlap figures are in fact correct for the given degrees of rotation? If they are, then the others in those columns should be correct as well.

FYI When I used your calculator to compute my FOV figures, I found your "auto fill" values for the D700 sensor to be incorrect.
Your values: 34 x 24
D700 manual: 36 x 23.9 <--these are the values I used

The table was designed to answer the question.... Which Nodal Ninja detents should I use for multi-row mosaics, and what will be the resulting overlap percentages?

Results are limited to only those where the overlap percent falls between 25% and 49%. Any overlap percentage outside that range, it seems, would be less than desirable so I didn't include them.

The RD-16 column shows only those detents available on the RD-16 (lower) rotator, as degrees. Under the degree figure is the resulting overlap figure.

The M1-L column shows only the positions available on the M1 (upper) rotator as a "NUMBER" of click stops (NOT as degrees). Given that the M1 is limited to 7.5° increments, a number 2 would equate to 15° and so on.

Here's an example using a 70mm lens......
To pan side-to-side I have the options to set the RD-16 to 10° for a 48% overlap, or to 12° for a 38% overlap. To pan up/down I have the options to move 2 click stops (15°) on the M1 upper rotator for a 37% overlap, or 3 click stops (22.5°) for 25%.

Table for camera mounted in PORTRAIT orientation (overlap figures rounded to the nearest integer.)

	RD-16					M1-L Number of Click Stops (@7.5° each)
	-------------------			---------------------------------------
24mm	30°	36°				2	3
	43%	32%				45%	30%
							
28mm	24°	30°				2	3
	48%	35%				44%	30%
							
35mm	20°	24°				2	3
	47%	36%				43%	29%
							
50mm	15°	18°	20°			2	3
	44%	33%	26%			41%	27%
							
70mm	10°	12°				2	3
	48%	38%				37%	25%
							
135mm	6°	8°				2	
	41%	26%				25%	
							
200mm	4°	5°				1	
	45%	27%				27%	

Basis for the above figures.....
Field Of View for D700 36 x 23.9 sensor
Lens mm
24mm	73.74°	52.94°
28mm	65.47°	46.22°
35mm	54.43°	37.70°
50mm	39.60°	26.88°
70mm	28.84°	19.38°
135mm	15.19°	10.12°
200mm	10.29°	6.84°

If those figures are correct I can prepare my order and place it next week. Otherwise I will have to recalculate and review them again.

You can ask your reseller to add/deduct items in the package. They have prices of individual items.

I'm located in the eastern US, any reason why I couldn't order from you instead of a reseller?

It seems the only complication is getting the unit with the 210mm upper rail instead of the standard 170mm rail. Could this be done easily with an online order, or would it be best to phone in the order?

Regards,
Frank

[hindenhaag]

Hi Frank,

you are right, there is a fault in the calculator for D700 on the web site. http://www.frankvanderpol.nl/fov_pan_calc.htm This is the original version.

Concerning RD16 there is only one fault with 200mm focal length: there is no 4º set up. It would be 3.75º with 45%.

An overlap of around 30% is very good. Normally we say that 25% is enough. Overlaps >=45% may cause stitching errors, cause the program might generate too many control points. But to get to know, you should make some test shots.

As the upper rotator - M1_L - is concerned, I can not follow your thoughts. Actually you have to calculate the degree of Pitch = how many degrees you move the upper rail up or down and how many rows you have to shoot to get 180º in vertical.

@zoom 24 you would need 3 rows at +45º, 0º, -45º plus Z/N shots. Upper rotator always clicks by 7.5º per steps, so to reach a pitch of +45º, you have to click 6x.

Plus you have to calculate that using longer focal lengths and getting to 8 rows for example, you can reduce the number of shots coming closer to Zenith or Nadir.

But the upper rotator's 7.5º will be ok . I only have to recalculate my NN5 settings with its 2.5º steps for new pitch steps.

I should have received my RRS B2-LRII clamp today, but the bloody TNT post in NL does not deliver the parcel from Friday to monday, the parcel from France from Vincen took 2 days!! I will prepare it for the M1-L and send you the pics. Was interested in this question so I got one.

So long for today,
Heinz

[John Houghton]

Frank, I checked your calculations for the percentage overlap for 70mm. The horizontal figures are ok, but the vertical ones appear to be wrong. For a pitch increment of 15°, the percentage overlap is (28.84-15)/28.84x100=48%. For a pitch increment of 22.5°, the percentage overlap is (28.84-22.5)/22.84x100=22%.

John