Horizontal yes or horizontal no?

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  1. Horizontal yes or horizontal no?

    #1
    Users Country Flag
    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Location: Edmonton, Canada
    Posts: 41

    Okay, I’m confused. I was looking at the page that describes the Fanotec Pole Series 1.

    http://store.nodalninja.com/products...-Series-1.html

    In Product Description I read, “Each module can be used independently (additional parts needed), creating an array of short poles with different stiffness for different applications, such as horizontal pole for cliff panoramas.”

    Then in Specifications I read “Suitable for Horizontal application: No”

    Please clarify. :)

    I’m interested in finding a horizontal rig for cliff panos and vehicle interiors. Can I use the poles horizontally if I clamp them in position?

    My Benro Flexpod tripod center shaft, which is 28 mm diameter, can be fixed horizontally, but it’s too short for most horizontal pano work.

    Judy
  2. #2
    Users Country Flag
    Join Date: Aug 2008
    Location: Netherlands
    Posts: 1,741

    Hi Judy,

    at this moment of pole development and accessories it is not suitable for horizontal use. As I have heard, an adaptor for horizontal use and a suitable pole is in the development tube. No timetable of delivery till now.

    I tested the pole in horizontal application by fitting it to the center column of my manfrotto tripod on my own risk. With D90 and fisheye lens on top it is bending quite a lot, the more you extend the pole of course. Then I stopped with it because I did not want my new pole to brake, especially the pole base.

    What length do you need? I used Gitzo equipment before I got the nadir adaptor by adding two tubes together.

    Heinz
    Last edited by hindenhaag; 12-27-2010 at 11:42 PM.
  3. #3
    Users Country Flag 360texas's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2010
    Location: Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Posts: 34

    Few years ago I made an animation that demonstrates the technique for taking 'over the edge or cliff panoramas'. The technique is not for the faint hearted.. but it does provide a unique panoramic view.

    http://360texas.com/tips/hpolepano/panoani.htm

    Here is the resultant panorama

    http://360texas.com/tips/hpolepano/panopole.htm

    While in Mexico, here is another view using a typical monopod

    http://360texas.com/tips/hpolepano/edgepano.htm


    Now stitching the panorama with PTgui provides for a challenge as panorama nadir is now located on the horizon.. and I found that using Pano2vr to cube the equirectangle image was easy to paste in the premade tripod cap. The frown on my face was caused by my nervousness in sticking my expensive camera out in clear space in fear that it might fall off the monopod... which it did not.. so all was well.

    The pole you use should have a "stiff" upper pole section. The upper pole segment used in our horizontal pano's is at least 1" in diameter (2.54cm). Smaller upper diameter pole segment like 3/4" or smaller results is too flexible and you will have difficulty in maintaining a level horizon.

    These images were taken with another type of pole... but the technique remains the same. More about horizontal telescoping pole can be found on

    http://360texas.com/services/software/agnos/index.htm

    Also there is a downloadable 4 full sphere image set (17mb) free to try out stitching.

    Have fun.. and take horizontal panoramas safely.
    Last edited by 360texas; 12-28-2010 at 07:10 AM.



    Dave still at 360texas.com
    Forum Moderator Pano2VR
  4. #4
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    Join Date: Apr 2008
    Location: Hong Kong
    Posts: 2,441

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy-A View Post


    In Product Description I read, “Each module can be used independently (additional parts needed), creating an array of short poles with different stiffness for different applications, such as horizontal pole for cliff panoramas.”

    Then in Specifications I read “Suitable for Horizontal application: No”

    Please clarify. :)

    I’m interested in finding a horizontal rig for cliff panos and vehicle interiors. Can I use the poles horizontally if I clamp them in position?
    Hi Judy,


    There will be at least 3 series of Fanotec poles with different length and strength. The Modular description applies to Series 2 and 3 which consist of more than one modules. Series 1 only have one module although it can be mounted on module of series 2 to increase the max height.
    About horizontal application.
    Firstly, typical tripods and monopods are designed to accept compressive stress only. When a pole is used horizontally, stress can be tensile. The joints can fall apart if the glue holding them fails. I use Loctite industrial grade epoxy for the joints. It can hold >10kg tensile stress in my tests. But there is no guarantee after years of use of the pole. So special device for extra safety is needed for horizontal application.
    Secondly, in order to keep the deflection to less than 10cm/ 4" (to maintain NPP), a much more rigid (larger diameter) pole is needed for horizontal application. The poles consist of telescopic tubes (with increasing diameters). Larger tubes are much more rigid and stronger. They are more suitable for horizontal use. That is in Series 2 and 3, only the stronger module can be "readily" used horizontally. That said, I will release some guy wire support system which will make Series 1 Pole more suitable for horizontal application.
    I think you know how horizontal application can be a challenge after seeing Dave's animation.




    Nick
    Last edited by nick fan; 12-28-2010 at 08:08 AM.



    Fanotec
    We listen. We try harder.
  5. #5
    Users Country Flag
    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Location: Edmonton, Canada
    Posts: 41

    Thanks for the replies.

    This past summer, we visited several canyons in the Canadian Rocky Mountains. I was wishing that I had some kind of horizontal pole that wouldn’t be too cumbersome to carry on a 2 or 3 km hike.

    Here’s an example of a shot that would have been much improved if my camera had been closer to the edge.

    Medium size (2.2 MB)
    http://www.judyarndt.ca/pano-june201...anyon_med.html

    Larger size: (5.7 MB)
    http://www.judyarndt.ca/pano-june201...ya_canyon.html

    The ledge I was standing on was slightly sloped towards the water and I was afraid that a bump might send my tripod and camera toppling over the edge. I was wishing I’d brought ropes to tether myself and my gear. I was also wishing for a pole that would have given me a view into the roiling water below.

    A pole that extends about 1.2 to 1.5 m (4-5 ft.) horizontally from the center of the tripod would give me a lot of new possibilities. I don’t foresee needing extra height at the same time, as in Dave’s example of shooting over the pool.

    Here’s my current gear:
    Nikon D5000, Samyang 8mm fisheye lens
    Nodal Ninja 3 Mk II, RD-8 Rotator
    Weight of D5000+Samyang 8mm+NN3+RD-8 1.87 kg (4 lb 2 oz.)
    Benro C-298EX tripod. Center column (28 mm diameter) can be fixed horizontally or at an angle. Tripod has ring to which a weight can be attached.

    Horizontal pole specs:
    Because the column/pole must be threaded through a 1-piece clamp, any pole that would work with this tripod can’t exceed 28 mm diameter on one end.

    When I look and the Fanotec pole set, if I could remove the 32mm section, clamp the 28mm section in my tripod, leave the the 20 mm section retracted, and extend only the 24 mm section, it might work for me. Can the 32 mm section be removed?

    (I would use the entire Fanotec set for vertical pole panos in other circumstances, so this wouldn’t be a waste of good hardware.)

    Shooting pattern:
    With the Samyang fisheye and NN3/RD-8, four shots around at -15˚ plus a zenith are normally adequate coverage.

    However when manually estimating angles and allowing for pole flex, if I took six shots around, angled away from the base of the NN3 at +30˚, and then six shots angled towards the base -30˚, it should give me more than adequate coverage. I’d have to improvise to cover the pole area. It’s usually not too hard to make a patch look natural with rocks and foliage.

    Any suggestions will be much appreciated.

    Judy
  6. #6
    Users Country Flag
    Join Date: Apr 2008
    Location: Hong Kong
    Posts: 2,441

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy-A View Post
    Thanks for the replies.

    This past summer, we visited several canyons in the Canadian Rocky Mountains. I was wishing that I had some kind of horizontal pole that wouldn’t be too cumbersome to carry on a 2 or 3 km hike.

    Here’s an example of a shot that would have been much improved if my camera had been closer to the edge.
    Larger size: (5.7 MB)
    http://www.judyarndt.ca/pano-june201...ya_canyon.html
    Wow, a pano above the water will be breath taking.

    A pole that extends about 1.2 to 1.5 m (4-5 ft.) horizontally from the center of the tripod would give me a lot of new possibilities. I don’t foresee needing extra height at the same time, as in Dave’s example of shooting over the pool.

    Here’s my current gear:
    Nikon D5000, Samyang 8mm fisheye lens
    Nodal Ninja 3 Mk II, RD-8 Rotator
    Weight of D5000+Samyang 8mm+NN3+RD-8 1.87 kg (4 lb 2 oz.)
    Benro C-298EX tripod. Center column (28 mm diameter) can be fixed horizontally or at an angle. Tripod has ring to which a weight can be attached.

    Horizontal pole specs:
    Because the column/pole must be threaded through a 1-piece clamp, any pole that would work with this tripod can’t exceed 28 mm diameter on one end.

    When I look and the Fanotec pole set, if I could remove the 32mm section, clamp the 28mm section in my tripod, leave the the 20 mm section retracted, and extend only the 24 mm section, it might work for me. Can the 32 mm section be removed?
    yes, each section is removable. Without the 32mm section, the max height is just about 2m. Probably, you need to shorten it to 1.2m for better rigidity. That said you still need a safety device which I will release soon.
    FYI, Series 2 pole has a closed length of 1.17m which is still very portable. If you want to go higher, Series 2 will be a good chance.
    Remove the rotator from NN3 to save the weight. You can mount NN3 on our new Quick mount mini for best security.
    http://store.nodalninja.com/products...er-System.html
    you can quickly switch between RD8 and pole.

    Nick
    Last edited by nick fan; 12-29-2010 at 01:30 AM.



    Fanotec
    We listen. We try harder.
  7. #7
    Users Country Flag
    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Location: Edmonton, Canada
    Posts: 41

    Thanks very much for all the information, Nick. I won’t need poles until spring, so will consider all the options, including waiting for your Series 2 set.

    Judy
  8. #8

    Quote Originally Posted by nick fan View Post
    ...
    The joints can fall apart if the glue holding them fails. I use Loctite industrial grade epoxy for the joints. It can hold >10kg tensile stress in my tests. But there is no guarantee after years of use of the pole. So special device for extra safety is needed for horizontal application.
    Hi Nick, what's glued in Fanotec poles?
    I can clearly see some parts as glued, particulary I ask if the tube alone is glued from two halfs?
    it doesn't look so but better ask, if isn't glued, then can we say that the tube alone is unbreakable, ok not absolute unbreakable but impossible to break by camera weight's only even horisontally, again the tube alone.

    thanks,
    Dorin
    http://www.livepanoramas.com
    Last edited by DorinDXN; 06-30-2011 at 08:20 AM.
  9. #9
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    Join Date: Apr 2008
    Location: Hong Kong
    Posts: 2,441

    Quote Originally Posted by DorinDXN View Post
    Hi Nick, what's glued in Fanotec poles?
    I can clearly see some parts as glued, particulary I ask if the tube alone is glued from two halfs?
    it doesn't look so but better ask, if isn't glued, then can we say that the tube alone is unbreakable, ok not absolute unbreakable but impossible to break by camera weight's only even horisontally, again the tube alone.

    thanks,
    Dorin
    http://www.livepanoramas.com

    Glue we use is LOCTITE® Hysol® Product E-60HP which are very strong. It should be able to withstand the weight of camera and lens alone. But never will I recommend horizontal application without EXTRA safety device, not for the chance of 1/10,000. The problem with glue is aging and impact on the joint. It may be fine at the beginning. who knows the next time?

    Nick



    Fanotec
    We listen. We try harder.
  10. #10

    Quote Originally Posted by nick fan View Post
    Glue we use is LOCTITE® Hysol® Product E-60HP which are very strong. It should be able to withstand the weight of camera and lens alone. But never will I recommend horizontal application without EXTRA safety device, not for the chance of 1/10,000. The problem with glue is aging and impact on the joint. It may be fine at the beginning. who knows the next time?
    Nick
    Attempting horizontal panoramas with Fanotec poles even if camera is tethered and your insurance is up to date is very dangerous. If mishap happens poles are not warrantied for resulting damage and our company is not liable for any resulting legal costs. Poles were a big hit in Palmela and sold out the day prior to the event. Fanotec poles were everywhere as seen in the facebook photos. Some people were taking risks - not mentioning names - hanging Fanotec poles over the sides of cliffs and over the edges of Castle walls.
    Becuase the poles are carbon fiber people quickly appreciate the lightweght and super strong characteristic of this material. It's easy to understand one wanting to push it beyond recommended limits. Like buying a little sports car - you are not supposed to take it over the speed limit.

    Fanotec poles if used under normal conditions will last for many years. I am still using the early prototype from over a year and you can't even tell it has been used and it stands as strong as it did the day I first used it.

    Bill
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