Sigma 10-20mm, Sigma 8mm or Canon EF-s 10-22mm

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  1. Sigma 10-20mm, Sigma 8mm or Canon EF-s 10-22mm

    #1
    Users Country Flag VinkoCM's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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    Question

    Hello everybody,

    I am considering purchasing a fisheye or ultra-wide angle lens for my Canon 450d (from the Digital Rebel XSi kit) and I have narroed it down to these three options:

    Sigma 10-20mm 4-5.6 EX DC Canon HSM ultra-wide angle lens
    Sigma 8mm F3.5 EX DG Canon Circ Fisheye lens
    Canon EF-s 10-22mm 3.5-4.5 USM ultra-wide angle lens

    My question is what do other people think about these lenses? Are they usefull for 360x180 panoramas or do they cause some problems? What lens offers the best bang for your buck> Will they work with my 450d (I think so, but I would like confimation) How many shots around are need for 360 degrees (3 or 4 for the Sigma 8mm and 6 or 8 for the others?)? I don't intend to ever print any panos, I will just be posting them online. Also, will my setup (canon 450d with any of these lenses) fit onto the Nodal Ninja MK3. That is the pano head I have now and I am not ready to upgrade yet.

    At the moment, I will not purchase anything, I am just doing research to see what is my best option. Right now I really like the Sigma 10-20mm because of the price ($700). I am only a student and I can't afford to dish out thousands for just a lens, I would rather spend the money on books for school or tuition.

    Anyways, thanks in advance for any comments and suggestions. Hopefully one day I will make up my mind.
    Last edited by VinkoCM; 08-04-2010 at 06:35 AM.
  2. #2
    Users Country Flag
    Join Date: Aug 2008
    Location: Netherlands
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    Hi,

    have a look to this: http://www.vrwave.com/

    Regards

    Heinz
  3. #3
    Users Country Flag VinkoCM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hindenhaag View Post
    Hi,

    have a look to this: http://www.vrwave.com/

    Regards

    Heinz
    THANK YOU! This is a great resource of information and I would love to have found it earlier. This will help out a huge amount show me all my available options. Perfect.
  4. #4

    Hello VinkoCM,

    I would suggest that you also consider the Samyang 8mm, which is different in design to the Sigma 8mm fisheye so has a much tighter range for the entrance pupil.
    http://www.hugha.co.uk/NodalPoint/Index.htm#Samyang

    Further information on this lens is available @:
    http://www.lenstip.com/160.1-Lens_re...roduction.html
    http://michel.thoby.free.fr/SAMYANG/...%20report.html

    All the lenses you list will produce great Panoramas, but the Samyang appears to be of better design than "conventional" fisheye lenses for Panoramas and is also less costly.
    I have used the Sigma 8mm fisheye and still use the Sigma 10-20mm 4-5.6 EX DC, but with a Nikon body, which does not make any difference as far as the lens is concerned.
    I have changed using the Sigma 8mm for a Nikon 10.5mm fisheye, but only because I had to make a choice as I did not need to have two fisheye lenses.

    Best regards, Hugh.
  5. #5

    Quote Originally Posted by VinkoCM View Post
    Hello everybody,
    I am considering purchasing a fisheye or ultra-wide angle lens for my Canon 450d (from the Digital Rebel XSi kit) and I have narroed it down to these three options:
    Sigma 10-20mm 4-5.6 EX DC Canon HSM ultra-wide angle lens
    Sigma 8mm F3.5 EX DG Canon Circ Fisheye lens
    Canon EF-s 10-22mm 3.5-4.5 USM ultra-wide angle lens
    My question is what do other people think about these lenses? Are they usefull for 360x180 panoramas or do they cause some problems? What lens offers the best bang for your buck> Will they work with my 450d (I think so, but I would like confimation) How many shots around are need for 360 degrees (3 or 4 for the Sigma 8mm and 6 or 8 for the others?)? I don't intend to ever print any panos, I will just be posting them online. Also, will my setup (canon 450d with any of these lenses) fit onto the Nodal Ninja MK3. That is the pano head I have now and I am not ready to upgrade yet.

    At the moment, I will not purchase anything, I am just doing research to see what is my best option. Right now I really like the Sigma 10-20mm because of the price ($700). I am only a student and I can't afford to dish out thousands for just a lens, I would rather spend the money on books for school or tuition.

    Anyways, thanks in advance for any comments and suggestions. Hopefully one day I will make up my mind.
    Hi Vinko,
    As Hugh mentioned "All the lenses you list will produce great Panoramas". Buying a lens is like buying a pair of shoes - very user specific. Depends on budget, workflow, type of panoramas, future objectives etc. Basically speaking the longer the focal length the better quality output. Nikkor 10.5 has a better quality than the Sigma 8mm. However depending on how much time you have in post-production I have seen users of the 8mm produce stunning high resolution panoramas.
    Here is a link to Dorin's website which showcases what is possible with different lenses but primarily he shoots with the Sigma 8mm.
    http://www.dxn.ro
    The Samyang will also produce equivalent output but it is a manual focus lens at about half the price. Stay away from converter lens.
    Cheers
    Bill
  6. #6

    Hi Vinko,

    The Sigma 10-20mm and Canon 10-22mm are nice lenses but for a 360x180 choice the Sigma 8mm Fisheye.

    On a Canon Eos 450D the 10-22mm = 16-35mm (crop of 1.6 of the sensor). What about later on, are you buying a full frame Canon (5D MKII)? When you planning to buy one with in one year, don't buy this lenses at all. On the Canon 5D MKII and higher you can't use the EFs 10-22mm or the Sigma 10-20mm. The Sigma 8mm fisheye will work on the 5D MKII, even better!

    Johan
  7. #7
    Users Country Flag VinkoCM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
    Hello VinkoCM,

    I would suggest that you also consider the Samyang 8mm, which is different in design to the Sigma 8mm fisheye so has a much tighter range for the entrance pupil.

    All the lenses you list will produce great Panoramas, but the Samyang appears to be of better design than "conventional" fisheye lenses for Panoramas and is also less costly.

    Best regards, Hugh.
    I have been reading about this lens in the links you gave me and it seems like a very promising lens. I am definatly considering it now. Can you tell me how much this lens costs? I have not been able to find a reseller or vendor in my area (Ottawa, Canada) so I do not know how much it would cost in store. Is it around the $500-$700 range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Bailey View Post
    Hi Vinko,
    As Hugh mentioned "All the lenses you list will produce great Panoramas". Buying a lens is like buying a pair of shoes - very user specific. Depends on budget, workflow, type of panoramas, future objectives etc. Basically speaking the longer the focal length the better quality output. Nikkor 10.5 has a better quality than the Sigma 8mm. However depending on how much time you have in post-production I have seen users of the 8mm produce stunning high resolution panoramas.

    The Samyang will also produce equivalent output but it is a manual focus lens at about half the price. Stay away from converter lens.
    Cheers
    Bill
    I couldn't agree with you more Bill. Buying these kinds of lenses is very user specific.

    What I am looking to do is shorten my workflow on a tight budget. What I would like to do is shorten the number of images I need to take as well as the time I need to take them. I would like to be able to walk around/go hiking and quickly take a pano. With my current setup, I am taking way too much time to take the images (using auto-bracketing adds a bit of time aswell). This is causing me problems such as the scenery changing (clouds, sun being blocked or shining through) and I end up spending more time standing around the tripod than enjoying my free time.

    So, right now I am leaning towards the Sigma 10-22mm because it cuts down the number of needed images by more than half and will only cost me about $700 CAD. I would love to get the Sigma 8mm which would really shorten my workflow, but it is very expensive for me. On the other hand the Samyang 8mm seems perfect if it is not too expensive and will cut down on the number of needed images.

    As for creating super high-resolution images, I really don't care too much about that right now. I don't intend to print/publish any of my panos, only show them online to family and friends and to document my travels. If I ever do need to create high-resolution panos, I can just use my current Canon EF-S 18-55mm lens.

    Does the lens being a manual focus affect the workflow much? I read in one of Hugh's links that by stepping down to a specific F-stop and focusing at about 1m/3f everything to infiity focuses. Am I making sense? Maybe I misunderstood what I read.

    One final question: why stay away from converter lenses? I have not even thought about them, but it is curious you mention to not even look at them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seacat View Post
    Hi Vinko,

    The Sigma 10-20mm and Canon 10-22mm are nice lenses but for a 360x180 choice the Sigma 8mm Fisheye.

    On a Canon Eos 450D the 10-22mm = 16-35mm (crop of 1.6 of the sensor). What about later on, are you buying a full frame Canon (5D MKII)? When you planning to buy one with in one year, don't buy this lenses at all. On the Canon 5D MKII and higher you can't use the EFs 10-22mm or the Sigma 10-20mm. The Sigma 8mm fisheye will work on the 5D MKII, even better!

    Johan
    I am not planning to upgrade my camera at all yet. I will be using my 450d for a while to come. But I will keep this in mind, just in case. Thank you.
  8. #8
    Users Country Flag VinkoCM's Avatar
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    Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts: 65

    I am really starting to like the Samyang 8mm lens, but I am a bit confused about its name. Is it also called a Rokinon sometimes? I found this on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Rokinon-Aspher...1037744&sr=8-4 and I think it is the same lens. Can some one confirm this?

    Also, I ran it through the pano calculator here on the Nodal Ninja site and it gave me 4.4 images in portrait with 25% overlap. Is this correct? For $270, I really like this one, especially if I worked the calculator right and it means I don't need to take more than 10 images.
  9. #9

    Same same - Samyang, Rokinon, Falcon, Polar, Bower, Vivitar or Opteka. I'll let someone else answer the question on overlap - haven't used this lens myself.
  10. #10

    When i'm making a 360X180 i make:
    - 6 images around;
    - 1 image of the top (the zenith)
    - 2 images of the bottum on the tripod (nadir)
    - 1 image of the bottum without tripod (to close the nadir)

    So 10 images is correct! sometimes i make 6 images around 2 times, so when people or cars are in the frame, i can clone them out or in.

    Johan
  11. #11

    Hey Johan,
    off topic here but had to say love your website (www.360p.nl) - especially the Messina giga-pixel image you did. What camera/lens did you use?
    Bill
  12. #12

    Quote Originally Posted by VinkoCM View Post
    Does the lens being a manual focus affect the workflow much? I read in one of Hugh's links that by stepping down to a specific F-stop and focusing at about 1m/3f everything to infiity focuses. Am I making sense? Maybe I misunderstood what I read.
    Lack of auto focus is not a big inconvenience with fisheye lenses because of the huge depth of field at the apertures normally used. Mostly, you can just set the optimum focus distance and tape the lens in that position so that you get the maximum depth of field. However, don't rely too much on the focus scale of the lens; it isn't always very accurate. Take some test shots to establish the optimum focus setting and read up about "hyperfocal distance".

    John
  13. #13

    Hello VinkoCM,

    Quote Originally Posted by John Houghton View Post
    Lack of auto focus is not a big inconvenience with fisheye lenses because of the huge depth of field at the apertures normally used. Mostly, you can just set the optimum focus distance and tape the lens in that position so that you get the maximum depth of field. John


    I agree completely with John.
    Autofocus is not a major consideration with fisheye lenses for Spherical Panoramas. Some autofocus fisheye lenses are only autofocus with some bodies (e.g. Sigma 8mm is autofocus on Nikon D70 and Nikon D300, but not on Nikon D60).

    As Bill says, the lens has many different names. I cannot comment on suppliers in Canada, but as a guide to price 360 Tactical VR in Scotland (http://www.360tacticalvr.com/systems/fisheye-lenses/samyang.html)
    sells it for £270 ($430), so your $270 on the other side of the pond is probably right.

    The Sigma 10-20mm does have the property that all the rays entering the lens meet at a single point (Entrance Pupil) making this the correct point to rotate round, whereas this "point" in a fisheye is actually an infinite number of points so the point of rotation tends to depend on the number of images and personal preference. Also, a lens such as the Sigma 10-20mm can be used for "normal" photography, whereas a fisheye is less versatile.

    As for number of images: Seacat's recommendation fits the general pattern, and John would probably agree with this, but it can boil down to personal preferences. I tend to use a "Tripod Cap" for my nadir as a link back to my "index" page so 6 horizontal images with 1 zenith with the Samyang 8mm would suit me.
    With my Nikon 10.5mm I take 8 horizontal images plus 4 at +45° and with the Sigma 10-20mm I do 3 tiers with the 8 detent ring (45°) horizontal separation, which is a lot more images.
    My philosophy is that I have taken time to get to site and set up my kit so a minute or two for extra shots is not a problem and processing time in PTGui is not significantly increased.
    http://www.hugha.co.uk/NodalPoint/Sp...ormal-Lens.htm

    Going off topic: Thanks Bill for the link to Dorin's web site. I found it a pleasure to brows and an inspiration. I though I was doing reasonably well with my panos but Dorin's work is amazing and something to aspire to.
    I particularly liked the anaglyph stereo panos. I have only made one of these and it took me a long time and a lot of “head scratching” despite Wim’s excellent tutorial, so really appreciate the effort he has made.
    Dorin, if you read this - I tried complementing you on your "Contact" page, but got an "Internal Server Error" message - maybe my location so I'll try from a different one tonight.

    Best regards, Hugh.
  14. #14

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Bailey View Post
    Hey Johan,
    off topic here but had to say love your website (www.360p.nl) - especially the Messina giga-pixel image you did. What camera/lens did you use?
    Bill
    Hi Bill,

    first: my excuses to Vinko for this off topic part!

    I used a Canon 1D MkIII and a Canon EF 70-200mm L f/2.8 IS. For more info see:

    http://www.nodalninja.com/forum/show...ait-of-Messina

    Johan
  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
    Hello VinkoCM,

    I agree completely with John.
    Autofocus is not a major consideration with fisheye lenses for Spherical Panoramas. Some autofocus fisheye lenses are only autofocus with some bodies (e.g. Sigma 8mm is autofocus on Nikon D70 and Nikon D300, but not on Nikon D60).

    The Sigma 10-20mm does have the property that all the rays entering the lens meet at a single point (Entrance Pupil) making this the correct point to rotate round, whereas this "point" in a fisheye is actually an infinite number of points so the point of rotation tends to depend on the number of images and personal preference. Also, a lens such as the Sigma 10-20mm can be used for "normal" photography, whereas a fisheye is less versatile.

    As for number of images: Seacat's recommendation fits the general pattern, and John would probably agree with this, but it can boil down to personal preferences. I tend to use a "Tripod Cap" for my nadir as a link back to my "index" page so 6 horizontal images with 1 zenith with the Samyang 8mm would suit me.
    With my Nikon 10.5mm I take 8 horizontal images plus 4 at +45° and with the Sigma 10-20mm I do 3 tiers with the 8 detent ring (45°) horizontal separation, which is a lot more images.
    My philosophy is that I have taken time to get to site and set up my kit so a minute or two for extra shots is not a problem and processing time in PTGui is not significantly increased.
    http://www.hugha.co.uk/NodalPoint/Sp...ormal-Lens.htm

    Best regards, Hugh.
    Ok, So I am definitely liking the Samyang 8mm lens. It is inexpensive, it seems to be perfectly suited for 360 panoramas and it will cut down my workflow considerably. At first I was a bit worried about the lack of autofocus, but I am sure I can handle it.

    But now I am a bit confused. You mentioned that a fisheye lens has an infinite number of no paralax points and that picking a point depends on the number of images I want to take. I don't understand how this works or why. Is there a special way of finding the NPP? And if there is more than one, how do I now which one to pick? I know how to find the NPP for a normal lens, but I guess this is different. Is there an online tutorial or something I can read up on?

    I hope I am not a pain with all these questions.
    Vinko
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