Will it work? - NN 3 MkII + Canon 500D + Tokina 11-16 f2.8

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  1. Will it work? - NN 3 MkII + Canon 500D + Tokina 11-16 f2.8

    #1

    Background... New to Nodal Ninja, but have been playing with pano for some time - recently borrowed a Manfrotto 303, and now wants to get a NN. Looking to be able to capture 360x180 + some smaller cylindrical shots - mostly outside in nature, or in city. Have Canon 500D (T2i) + Tokina 11-16mm lens, and thinking about trying out a Pelang 8mm at some point (possibly - but would like a solution that will work with the Tokina). Like to get out into nature and hike - so low weight and size is really important. Some examples of my recent panos - http://andy.bryant.name/pano/

    I was just about to press the button on a NN3 complete package, but then I came across this site
    http://www.red-door.co.uk/pages/prod...-head-nn3.html

    Which says that the distance between the tripod hole and front of lens is max 107mm (or 129mm with t-adapter)

    Mine is 135mm with UV filter or 130mm without.

    I'm having trouble visualizing why this is going to be an issue. Is it a show stopper? Or workable?

    I've also got a RRS L-shaped QR base on the camera which I would prefer to maintain in the solution (although taking this off isn't a big issue.
    http://reallyrightstuff.com/QR/05.html

    Would this QR clamp work - http://store.nodalninja.com/product_p/asqrc-2.htm

    Andy.
  2. Re: Will it work? - NN 3 MkII + Canon 500D + Tokina 11-16 f2.8

    #2
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    A F2.8 zoom will be better served by NN5/ 5L.


    nick



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  3. Re: Will it work? - NN 3 MkII + Canon 500D + Tokina 11-16 f2.8

    #3

    Hi Andy,
    Looks like the Tokina 11-16 is a good lens - I would suspect much better than the Peleng.
    We don't normally recommend the NN3 for users of DSLR unless it's a small DSLR with small lens. And you can't use the L bracket with DSLR on NN3.
    Your best bet is stepping into the NN5 series, the least expensive model being the NN5L (approx 900 grams). You would be able to achieve full rotation up. And if you are used to the heavier Manfrotto the NN5 series (all models) are smaller and more lightweight. If you wanted to use L bracket we have an Arca Style Clamp.
    We have a reseller located in your city - Grenoble: http://magasin.skivr.com/ (Vincen here in the forum). I'm sure he would be more than happy to assist you as well in finding the right model for your needs.
    Cheers
    Bill
  4. Re: Will it work? - NN 3 MkII + Canon 500D + Tokina 11-16 f2.8

    #4
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    Andy,

    The upper rail settings is not determined by the overall distance from tripod mount to front lens. It relates to the NPP of the lens at a special zoom setting to the lens flange ( L2 ) plus the distance lens flange to the tripod mount of your camera body ( L1 ).

    I am Nikonian, but you can find the data at this database: http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database : L1 = 39, L2 Zoom 11 65.6 : 66, Zoom 16 67.6: 68. This will end up with an upper rail setting (URS) with 105 or 107.

    The lower rail setting is determined by H of the database which is 38.5 for your camera, my personal equipment add 13mm for NN5 and 14mm for NN3 to this data, so lower rail settings are NN5 51.5 or 52.5 NN3.

    You have to test this with your equipment: http://www.easypano.com/forum/displa...1&TopicID=4162.

    I had a look to my NN3 MKII today because of your request. With the new Nadir adaptor you can go up to 70 - plus 6 mm for the offset of the vertical rail. So I suppose there is room for your L-bracket plus arca swiss style clamp.

    So I suggest you might go with a NN3.

    I often had comments of colleagues when I advised the NN5 in cases like this like Bill and Nick did as well. But when you are really thinking of weight, I know there are experienced guys who use a D300 with NN3. I tried this as well. When you add a heavier lens, the upper rail might not be able to stand the weight.

    Once being infected of the pano virus and spread out your experience with other than fisheye lenses to get higher resolution, I'd go for the NN5 with nadir adaptor. Anyway, check the nadir shot at URS 105 for your overall length. Just thinking of it. But it should be possible. I'll check this for you tomorrow morning.

    Conclusion: to be safe NN5 + nadir adaptor, limited weight with a rest of risk, NN3 + nadir adaptor.

    Now you stay with your decision, that's life. Anyway, I have used Manfrotto before as well. You will like NN Products. Using it is like a new birthday.

    And welcome to the forum,

    Heinz

  5. Re: Will it work? - NN 3 MkII + Canon 500D + Tokina 11-16 f2.8

    #5
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    BTW, I am sure Vincen will help you and if you are near him, test both equipments.

    Heinz

  6. #6

    Thanks for the input guys. As I thought it isn't completely black and white; and I'm surprised to hear that we've got a reseller in Grenoble.

    My lens is 560g, and camera 480g = 1040g, well within the 'regular-use working load' for the NN3, which is listed at 1.5kg. So it sounds like I might get away with the NN3, but would be safer with the NN5 (and that will give me a better chance of using an Arca-style QR clamp

    I guess I really need to get hold of a NN3 to try it in order to work out if it's going to work.

    Thanks,
    Andy.
  7. #7
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    Hi Andy!

    Quote Originally Posted by andybryant View Post
    Background... New to Nodal Ninja, but have been playing with pano for some time - recently borrowed a Manfrotto 303, and now wants to get a NN. Looking to be able to capture 360x180 + some smaller cylindrical shots - mostly outside in nature, or in city. Have Canon 500D (T2i) + Tokina 11-16mm lens, and thinking about trying out a Pelang 8mm at some point (possibly - but would like a solution that will work with the Tokina).

    [...]

    Which says that the distance between the tripod hole and front of lens is max 107mm (or 129mm with t-adapter)

    Mine is 135mm with UV filter or 130mm without.

    I'm having trouble visualizing why this is going to be an issue. Is it a show stopper? Or workable?
    I own both the Canon 500D/T1i (do you actually have the 500D/T1i or the 550D/T2i?) and the Tokina 11-16mm F2.6 ultra wide angle lens. Like you, I wanted to start into panoramic photography with an ultra wide angle lens instead of a fisheye lens, as it seemed more versatile to me. I do not have any use for a fisheye lens beside of panoramic photography.

    To really get started I recently bought a used Nodal Ninja 3 MKII with R-D8.

    I spend the last days to figure out the setup for my Canon 500D + Tokina 11-16mm at 11mm and it seems to me that I would need the T-Adapter to extend the upper rail above 107mm.

    For the lower rail I used two methods: First I aligned the center AF point with the R-D8 screw as recommended in most tutorials. But then I stumbled upon another method where try to align something near (fixed to the tripod) with something far away (on the ground) while flipping the camera 180° (i.e. the alignment must not change when flipping the camera). The later version seems to result in a much more precise setup of the lower rail.

    Then I setup the upper rail using the alignment of something near (an arrow on the window) and someting far (an antenna on the house on the other side of the street). My impression is that I would need to move the camera+lens combo beyond the 107mm that is possible with the NN3 MKII and the CP-1. At 107mm it is close to prefect, but not perfect. It already got better due to the second aligment precedure for the lower rail.

    Now before I decide on buying either the T-Adaper, a NN5L, or a fisheye lens, I will try to experiemt if I can workaround the current inaccuracy while stiching. I use Autopanao Pro and found to have issues in my first 360°x180° tests.

    I would apreciate any hints & tips on how I could get around with my current gear.

    Please let me know, if you figure out a good setup for the 500D + Tokina 11-16mm together with Vincen.


    Greetings from Germany,
    Jens
  8. #8
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    Jens,

    have a look to this database: http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database. To get your lower rail setting, my personal NN equipment adds 14mm to ( H ). To find the upper rails settings, just addd L1 + L2 from the database.

    Have a look to this : http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm

    For LRS see Smooth's Hacksaw method.

    Try these settings with your own equipment.

    Regards,

    Heinz
    Last edited by hindenhaag; 08-01-2010 at 07:27 AM.
  9. #9
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    Jens,

    the link on how to test your LRS: http://www.easypano.com/forum/displa...1&TopicID=4162

    Heinz
  10. #10
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    Hello Heinz,

    thank you for the links!

    Quote Originally Posted by hindenhaag View Post
    have a look to this database: http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database. To get your lower rail setting, my personal NN equipment adds 14mm to ( H ). To find the upper rails settings, just addd L1 + L2 from the database.

    Have a look to this : http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm

    For LRS see Smooth's Hacksaw method.

    Try these settings with your own equipment.

    [...]

    the link on how to test your LRS: http://www.easypano.com/forum/displa...1&TopicID=4162
    First I tried to setup the lower rail using the usual method to align the center AF point with the center point of the NN3. According to the test method you pointed me at it was pretty bad aligned: (see image 1).

    I also stumbled upon the setup method explained at http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm. But I found it much more difficult than the "usual" setup method. For example I tried to determine if I had setup the lower rail correctly using the nail on the yarn. But it depends on how you look at the lens if the yarn is aligned with the "white spot" or not.

    This is why is setup the lower rail as explained here: http://www.panorama-community.net/wb...1570#post41570. I have attached some example shots that show that I got the lower rail setup pretty good aligned:

    (image 2 & 3 - both crops - therfore the NN3 center point is off center)

    This also shows the test you pointed me to: (image 4)

    I improved it a little bit thanks to the method you pointed me at: (image 5)

    I will need to continue my reply in a follow-up post, as I reached the max. attachment number...
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  11. #11
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    Contunued ...

    But regarding the upper rail setup I could still not get it right. I tried the value from the table you pointed me to. It would be 104,6mm for the Canon 500D + Tokina 11-16mm @ 11mm and focus at infinity. This still gives me stiching errors. With the maximum of 107mm it is better, but my initial test show that I must get to 108 or 109mm:

    (image 1 and 2)

    Maybe I am doing something wrong when taking the pictures or when stiching the files in Autopano Pro?

    I have setup the camera to F11, ISO 100, and use a 45° interval at 0°, and a 60° interval at +45° and -45°.

    Then I add all files to Autopano Pro and change the project properties to a high detection quality and 200 CPs. If I also check to remove lens distortion, it even gets a little bit better.

    Then I even get a perfect round hole in the ceiling :) (image 3)

    Thanks in advance, greetings from Germany,
    Jens
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  12. #12
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    Jens,

    The last one does not look bad. Just one question to pic one and two, did you turn the camera clockwise or contra-clockwise? As you tell us you think to go from 104 - 108, you move your cam backwards. This means the reference point moved against the turning direction of the camera. If you turned the other way, the reference moved with the cam, then you have to go forward. You could start with 100 for example, move backwards by 5, and try to find out at which point the reference moves in another direction. Then go back forward one by one, till you found the NPP. Your NPP still seam to be a little bit wrong and this is corrected by APP.

    Pic one and two seem to be different in exposure and focus. Please remember to set all things to manual: preset WB, set camera mode to A, and have a look for shutter speed when moving your camera around. Choose the best shutter speed and set camera mode to M with the best shutter speed. Focus to M. Tape the zoom on chosen position. And take the set of shots.

    I'd shoot 3 rows at 45° with 8 shots at 47.5°, 5°, and -35° to avoid the head of the rotator. Plus 1 +90°, 2/3 at -90°. Overlap calculated with around 30%.

    Cheers,

    Heinz
    Last edited by hindenhaag; 08-02-2010 at 01:03 PM.
  13. #13

    Quote Originally Posted by hindenhaag View Post
    BTW, I am sure Vincen will help you and if you are near him, test both equipments.
    Sorry I missed that thread, I would be happy to assist you if u need to try NN3 before you decide which model to buy :) I'm currently on holidays but will be back in Grenoble mid of next week ;)

    Vincèn



    French Nodal Ninja Distributor
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  14. #14
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    In first case I did not realize Brian lives in Grenoble because of his British flag. But this happened in former times as well "an english man in New York"

    Heinz
  15. #15
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    Hello Heinz,

    thanks for the reply!

    Quote Originally Posted by hindenhaag View Post
    The last one does not look bad. Just one question to pic one and two, did you turn the camera clockwise or contra-clockwise?
    I turned the camera clockwise (to the right) and the upper rail was at the maximum of 107mm. My impression is that I need to move even further than the maximum of 107mm, or am I wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by hindenhaag View Post
    Pic one and two seem to be different in exposure and focus. Please remember to set all things to manual: preset WB, set camera mode to A, and have a look for shutter speed when moving your camera around. Choose the best shutter speed and set camera mode to M with the best shutter speed. Focus to M. Tape the zoom on chosen position. And take the set of shots.
    The camera was set to Av f11, automatic white balance, and spot metering. The lens was set to 11mm. I focussed only one time on the area of interest using live-view. It should therefore not have focussed inbetween. In image 1 the area of interest was on the far right side of the image and on image 2 on the far left side.

    I must admit that I did not set the focus to infinite (as shown in the table you pointed me to). I will retry right now with the focus set to infinite.

    Autopano Pro does a great job to adjust the white balance and overall brighness. I will experiment with these settings when I get the nodal point right. Or does this have an impact on stitching?

    I will also try this method of fine-tuning the nodal point: http://www.rosaurophotography.com/html/technical7.html and http://www.outline.be/quicktime/tuto/.

    Greetings from Germany,
    Jens
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