Documentation help needed for R1
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  1. Documentation help needed for R1

    #1

    Having bought R1 for more than a month, I find the documentation absolutely miserable and really needs improvement.

    In the camera settings page on your website, there is a decent list of lenses listed, but the settings are mostly empty. Being a manufacturer, I think it is essential to provide a complete set of documentation, not something mostly empty.

    There is so much guesswork involved, and nobody is sure what is the correct setting even with common lenses such as Sigma, Nikon, or Canon. There is also no proper explanation on the purpose of tilt and roll too. E.g. what is nadir and zenith? (I had to google for nadir/zenith) How will tilting affect nadir and zenith? Should I keep my camera horizontal, vertical or roll it to 60 deg? What is the output difference between horizontal vs vertical vs roll?

    What is lacking is a _complete_ settings table that would look something like this:
    Lens make & model; Camera Make; Format (FF/APS); No. of shots; Tilt; Roll; Setting

    Each line in the table should cater specific format, instead of lumping it together as found in your documentation "3 shots around (on full frame sensor or APS sensor with 60 deg roll)"? So does the 60 deg roll refer to APS sensor only or both APS and FF?

    The R1 is a very well-made product with great finishing, but too bad I had a hard time using it.
  2. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #2
    Users Country Flag
    Join Date: Apr 2008
    Location: Hong Kong
    Posts: 2,458

    Hi Clavi,

    I apologize for your frustration. Documentation is our weak point. It has always be a work in progress.
    However, if you need help for your specific setup. We can help you more easily. What is your camera and lens in use?

    Panography is an immense subject, there a lot of excellent tutorials on the web
    http://www.johnhpanos.com/tuts.htm
    http://www.rosaurophotography.com/html/technical.html
    http://www.panoguide.com/howto/


    Nick



    Fanotec
    We listen. We try harder.
  3. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #3

    Thanks for the web links. However, they are never specific to R1, probably something near to NN5. It is still essential to have your own content, specific to your own product/s.

    I have a Nikon D700 with Sigma 8mm f/3.5, and I use EasyPano's Panoweaver to perform stitching. So far, I have tried out many settings but none seems perfect. In another forum, I have been advised to use 3 shots, 5 deg tilt at 24mm which is pretty close to perfection (still some "breaks" observed).

    Hopefully, your documentation will be the first New Year resolution for year 2010.
  4. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #4
    Users Country Flag
    Join Date: Apr 2008
    Location: Hong Kong
    Posts: 2,458

    Quote Originally Posted by clavi View Post
    Thanks for the web links. However, they are never specific to R1, probably something near to NN5. It is still essential to have your own content, specific to your own product/s.

    I have a Nikon D700 with Sigma 8mm f/3.5, and I use EasyPano's Panoweaver to perform stitching. So far, I have tried out many settings but none seems perfect. In another forum, I have been advised to use 3 shots, 5 deg tilt at 24mm which is pretty close to perfection (still some "breaks" observed).

    Hopefully, your documentation will be the first New Year resolution for year 2010.
    R1 is a single row pano head, you can imagine it has one axis of adjustment set. You only need to adjust the to-and-fro axis. So follow the tutorials, ignore the adjustment for the lower horizontal rail.

    Have you try the settings provided?
    Sigma 8mm f/3.5 DG for Nikon
    3 shots around (on full frame sensor, or APS sensor with 60¬? roll)
    Tilt angle----NPP value
    +7.5¬?---------0.50
    +5¬?------------0.80
    0¬?--------------1.50

    The values are tested by myself. They should be at least accurate to 0.1cm. If you can't get good stiching, upload your source photos for us to try.

    Nick

    PS
    I see you get the "recommended" setting here
    http://www.easypano.com/forum/displa...PagePosition=1
    That is completely irrelevant. Smooth is a Canon guy. The settings for R1 is lens mount specific.



    Fanotec
    We listen. We try harder.
  5. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #5

    Do I need to setup my cam body as portrait or landscape or roll 60 deg? What camera do you have?

    Smooth was just trying to help, and he did state upfront he's on Canon. He has no obligation to help as he isn't the maker. In fact, he recommended your products and I trusted his recommendations. That's why I here today.
  6. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #6
    Users Country Flag
    Join Date: Apr 2008
    Location: Hong Kong
    Posts: 2,458

    Quote Originally Posted by clavi View Post
    Do I need to setup my cam body as portrait or landscape or roll 60 deg? What camera do you have?

    Smooth was just trying to help, and he did state upfront he's on Canon. He has no obligation to help as he isn't the maker. In fact, he recommended your products and I trusted his recommendations. That's why I here today.
    Sigma 8mm is a circular fisheye on full frame sensor. No matter which angle your roll, you get same result. A circle is a indistinguishable whether it is in portrait/landscape/ or 60 deg rolled.

    Nick



    Fanotec
    We listen. We try harder.
  7. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #7

    Nick is right. Panoweaver should be able to cope with the camera at any angle, but if you still have stitching errors using the setings that Nick provided, do as he suggests and upload the set of jpeg images somewhere and we can try stitching with PTGui and see if there is anything amiss. If you don't have your own private web space, use a free service such as http://www.filedropper.com .

    John
  8. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #8

    Ok, I tried using 5 deg tilt at 0.8cm, and there are still breaks when I use Panoweaver.
    http://www.filedropper.com/dsc2790
    http://www.filedropper.com/dsc2791
    http://www.filedropper.com/dsc2792

    I also tried 0 deg, but I will upload them tomorrow. Thanks.
  9. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #9

    I had no trouble stitching with PTGui. This is the result:

    http://www.johnhpanos.com/DSC_2790_Panorama.html

    I'll maybe also try Panoweaver.

    John
  10. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #10

    I did notice a small glitch in the panorama on the top edge of the pews. This is the result of parallax, as shown here:

    http://www.johnhpanos.com/DSC_2790_Panorama.gif

    The head does need a little adjustment.

    John
  11. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #11

    I did try Panoweaver, but didn't manage to get a result as good as PTGui's. I added several extra control points (as I had to do in PTGui also) at the top and bottom but couldn't eliminate a number of small stitching errors. I'm not an experienced Panoweaver user though.

    John
  12. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #12

    John: How does parallax error occur in R1? How do we eliminate it?
    Thanks.
  13. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #13
    Users Country Flag
    Join Date: Apr 2008
    Location: Hong Kong
    Posts: 2,458

    Hi John,


    Thanks for the stitch. I just tried it and got poorer result with a few breaks at the ceiling.

    Hi clavi,

    A fisheye lens has no fixed NPP. NPP changes with angle of view.
    http://michel.thoby.free.fr/Fisheye_...the-pupil.html
    We are just trying to get the least parallax. For a 3-shot single row pano, the seams at the horizon is 120 deg apart while the seam at the zenith is ~180 deg apart. This means that NPP for horizon and zenith are different and can't be removed simultaneously. You can reduce the parallax at the horizon at the expense of zenith and vice versa. The NPP data is optimized for the horizon where we are most interested in.

    Your pano is a very challenging one. It has lots of structured lines at the ceiling with little distinctive features. This type of pano is best taken with a spherical pano head like NN3/5 which can take a separate zenith shot at NPP. With skills, a single row pano head with a lens having 180 deg vertical angle of view will be good for >95% panos. The <5% will need a spherical pano head.
    If you use ptgui, you can try to take a zenith shot on R1 and add it to the project. You can also try a setting of 1.65 which will reduce parallax at the zenith.


    Nick



    Fanotec
    We listen. We try harder.
  14. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #14

    Parallax occurs because of the shift in position of the entrance pupil from shot to shot. As it shifts to the left or right, near objects will appear to move to the right or left, respectively, with respect to whatever's in the background. It's exactly like the effect seen when you hold up your finger and move your eye from side to side. To eliminate parallax, what you need to do is eliminate movement of the entrance pupil when you shift the camera from one shot to the next. This is very easy to do with your DSLR and fisheye, because you have the huge advantage of being able to see the entrance pupil merely by looking into the lens. You will need to hold the camera so that the eyepiece at the back of the camera faces a bright light or window. Light can then enter the eyepiece and be reflected down by the prism and forwards by the mirror through the aperture and lens. So what you see when you look into the lens is the bright spot of the aperture. So, the method of adjusting the panohead becomes very simple:

    1. Position the head so that the camera is half way between two detent positions that will be used when shooting a panorama, and with the back of the camera facing a light or window so that the entrance pupil is visible as a bright spot.

    2. Swing the camera clockwise to the position at the +60 degree detent position (i.e. half of the normal panorama shoot increment of 120 degrees).

    3. Check the position of the entrance pupil. If it has shifted to the left (as seen from the front), then it must be in front of the rotation axis. If it has shifted to the right, then it must be behind the rotation axis.

    4. Now slide the camera forwards or backwards to bring the entrance pupil back to the original position when the camera was pointing straight ahead.

    5. Now check that the entrance pupil is in the same position when the head is at yaw positions +60 and -60. There might be a tiny difference, but adjust the head to minimize this.

    That's all there is to it. The one thing you need to have is a means of judging the position of the entrance pupil. You need to improvise a sighting device so that your line of sight is directed roughly along the optical axis of the lens. Use an empty ball point pen barrel positioned so that you see the entrance pupil centered in the hole at the end, or make something like a rifle sight using a strip of cardboard and a needle, as shown in http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm.

    There are other methods you can use, but this works very well and is simple and quick. (For rectilinear lenses, you need to stop down to f/22 and use the depth of field preview button to get a small spot).

    John
  15. Re: Documentation help needed for R1

    #15

    Quote Originally Posted by nick fan View Post
    Thanks for the stitch. I just tried it and got poorer result with a few breaks at the ceiling.
    Nick, I've uploaded my project file if you're interested: http://www.johnhpanos.com/DSC_2790_Project.zip.

    John

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