View Full Version : NPP Error or stitching error

05-24-2012, 05:35 AM
Hey guys,

i have a question regarding my new hardware: 7D+NN4+Sigma 10-20mm using @10mm.
i set the NN4 as close as the NPP but after tryin a 360 pano i get some shifting on the floor tiles while the nadir image is perfect.
for this one i used 17pictures (N, -30*8, 45*8)
i tried to move the Upper rail by one mm forward and backward and get the same shifting.

the day after i tried another setup; 16 pictures (-60*4, 0*8, 60*8) and the result on the floor is perfect however the nadir image is not.

as pictures are way better to explain things, have a look out there:


Password: panophoto

Do you think its a stiching issue with Autopano Pro or some adjustment of the NPP to be done ?

By the way i tried the second pano with a 17th images (the nadir) and the stiching is well on the tiles but rotator is not circular ...

Thanks guys for your help.

John Houghton
05-24-2012, 10:09 AM
The first panorama does reveal small problems with the setup of the head. The nadir shows parallax movement of the centre of the knob relative to the floor in the background. This is due to inaccuracies in the position of the entrance pupil when the camera is pointing vertically down. The entrance pupil should lie on the vertical axis of rotation, of course. There are two adjustments affecting the position: one is the mount position of the vertical rail onto the bottom rail, and the second is rotation of the camera about its tripod socket attached by a screw to the upper rail.
I suggest you take two nadir shots with the head rotated by 180 between them, and then stitch them together into a PSD layered file, using control points only on the floor. View the layered file in Photoshop and toggle the upper layer on/off. The centre point of the knob should not shift - ie there should be no visible parallax between the two shots. Inspection of the images should show what adjustments are needed to correct any shifts. It's just common sense.
Of course, the third adjustment required is the mount position on the upper rail. That appears to be quite good already, but should be checked after making the above adjustments.

05-24-2012, 11:19 AM

Besides John's basic hints I checked the database for your set up because I am a Nikonian. H1 for Canon D7 is 42 plus 13mm offset for NN4 gives an lower rail setting of 55mm on the lower rail. Zoom set @10mm L1 + L2 is 99.5 for URS = Upper Rail Setting.

How to check this?

http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm for URS = Upper rail setting




05-24-2012, 01:45 PM
Hi Heinz, John,

thanks for your tips, i'll try them tomorrow.
By the way my settings is lower rail :56mm (which might be the problem) and Upper rail: 99,5mm :th_wink:

i'll let you know

05-24-2012, 02:18 PM
You can check that the Sigma lens is set up visually by looking from the side and seeing if the NNP is in line with the vertical rotation axis.
For the Sigma 10-20mm @ 10mm the NNP IS 6mm back from the gold ring ...
Hope this helps, Hugh.

08-08-2012, 07:21 AM
Hi Hugh, Heinz & John, thank you very much for your help.

i found out that the CP-2 plate was not close enough to the camera body and so introduce some errors.
Now when i take 2 pics (Nadir shot) with 180 difference and i stitch them in photoshop layer, the logo nodal ninja doesn't move at all !!
however i spend hours and hours to improve my settings (7D + Sigma 10-20mm@10mm) as its a bit quiet at work (and i'm off the west coast of the US saturday morning), but i still noticed some errors:

i used the easypano methods. Upper rail set to +45 (so looking to the floor) take 8 pics (every 45) and stitch them into autopano pro.

The result (jpscolari.fr/wp-content/uploads/nodalninja/54-100_s.jpg)with lower rail set to 54mm and upper rail set to 100mm:

The result (jpscolari.fr/wp-content/uploads/nodalninja/54-995_s.jpg)with the same lower rail settings and the upper rail around 99,5mm

As you can see the logo is not quite clear and round. Is it a stitching issue or more related to parralax?

when i do a 360*180 (4pics at -60, 8*0, 4*60) i get this nadir (jpscolari.fr/wp-content/uploads/nodalninja/nadir.JPG)shot (LRS=54 URS=100)

I spend lots of time adjusting the lower and upper rail settings but i'm still not satisfied.

here (jpscolari.fr/wp-content/uploads/nodalninja/zenith54.JPG)the stitched zenith (4*45) at 54mm & 100mm
when i use LRS:55 and URS: 100 i have this result (jpscolari.fr/wp-content/uploads/nodalninja/zenith55.JPG)(worst)

Is this could be cause by the deformation of the 10mm ?
i know i shouldn't have any kind of problem outside, but i just want to be perfect.

Thank you for your help!!

John Houghton
08-08-2012, 02:41 PM
Perhaps you can make a set of images available (half size will do) so we can try stitching them with PTGui. It's possible it may do a better job than Autopano Pro.

08-08-2012, 03:01 PM

Have a look to this thread: http://www.nodalninja.com/forum/showthread.php?4901-NN3-or-NN4&p=37482#post37482

You are not the only one with this problem. And believe me, everyone of us started with these questions.

I believe you mean -45 pitch, but this is far too much. Just go down to -15 and use the settings I described in the other thread. You have to get a nice round rotator without teeth. May be you just download PTGui Pro as trial to find your settings. I am not up to date with autopano pro. But your Nadir view shows a tooth and shift of the panohead. So your settings seem to be not optimized. So LRS and URS = Lower ~ Upper rail settings seem to be out of NPP.

In the beginning you have to be sure about NPP Position on LRS and URS. Then go for Panos with Zenith and Nadir. When I am not sure about the whole workflow or doing a pano with new equipment, I first only stitch the pics around till I have a max distance below 2. In PTGui Pro I save this as template. Then I add step by step the zenith shot, stitch, and then the Nadir shots. Your pics of the zenith show often seen stitching errors. Sometimes you have to correct CP = Control points manually. Once you have made a template, the need of manual CP corrections will be reduced.

My be you send the set of pics on www.ge.tt to us to test them.

Theoretically you should start with LRS = 55mm ; H1 = 42mm + 13mm NN offset from CP-2 plate to reference point of vertical rail foot on lower rail. L1 + L2 gives you 99.5. I am a Nikonian so I can not test this. But this should be a good starting point to find your settings.

The Link to get to know about lenses: http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/sigma/

Feel free to ask,

08-09-2012, 04:53 AM
Hi John,

thanks for your help

you can have a look here (http://ge.tt/8poNZkL)


John Houghton
08-09-2012, 06:47 AM
The images were rather small, but they stitched perfectly with PTGui. The overlaps in the upper and lower rows are awkward and the automatic control point generator had difficulty in finding matching features. A good proportion of the points were assigned manually. The stitched image is at: http://www.ge.tt/#!/16b4klL/v/0 .

08-09-2012, 07:47 AM
hi John, thanks for your help

i tried PTgui during lunch, but as i dont know the soft it was very hard for me to stitch them, i get a RSM of 7...
i uploaded another batch of img here (http://ge.tt/4IWQxlL?c)
you can see the result called 54-100.jpg and at the ceiling on the top of the tripod see the deviation ...
Again, thanks for your time !!!

John Houghton
08-09-2012, 09:55 AM
The bigger images were easier to stitch but I still needed to correct and add points to get a good optimization: average 0.9, max 2.8. It's not an easy project for a beginner. My result and .pts project file are at:

08-09-2012, 11:25 PM
John,, thank you for your time !
What do you think then ?
Result looks good enough to me...
The differences between Autopano and PTGui worries me a bit.
Autopano doesn't have any trouble to find control point btw 2 images and the RMS is quite good (around 2). but i get these shifting ...

I'll try to have a look on Kolor Forum to check the settings.

I'm leaving tomorrow (saturday morning) for the West Coast of the US, so i'll try to bring back some wonderful VR's landscapes :)

Have fun and catch up in September.

Again, John, Heinz, thanks for your time and help.

08-10-2012, 06:24 AM
here (http://ge.tt/9ceyGpL)the result for me ;)
i had to set the tilt to -35 and the LRS is 56mm; URS is 99,5mm perfect to me !!! ;)
Cheers for your help !!!!

08-10-2012, 08:53 AM
Congrats, you got it.

Have nice time in US. We'll eager to see your panos..


08-10-2012, 10:55 AM
Hi heinz,

bad newz, i tried with these settings, and the pano is worst than ever !!
i'll go with the 54-99,5mm and see what the Grand canyon look like ;)

Have fun, and see you back in september.

08-10-2012, 11:17 PM

In case you have some time left, could you send the different sets of pics for lower rail setting @ 54, 55 , 56, 57 to check them?


John Houghton
08-11-2012, 06:09 AM
bad newz, i tried with these settings, and the pano is worst than ever !!
When stitched with what?

08-11-2012, 07:03 AM
Hi John,

he is using different LRS between 54 and 56 using Smooth's method we recommend. Then he seem to shoot a normal pano and is dealing with stitching errors.

By the way: since some days I tried to open your website like other users. It does not open. Not the site about epcalib.html. Not the home page of your site. It is linked to this: http://perfectoasis.com/showthread.php?sid=5110

So long and kind regards,

John Houghton
08-11-2012, 08:18 AM
Heinz, I know about the problem on my web site. If you copy the required URL directly into your browser, it loads ok. Clicking the link in the post redirects you somewhere else. All of the html files on my site were hacked by the addition of two lines of code at the end, which came to light a few days ago. I have uploaded fresh copies of all these files but that doesn't seem to have cured the problem. How the files were corrupted I don't know. There's a Google Redirect virus, described here: http://www.2-viruses.com/how-to-fix-google-results-hijacker-google-redirect-virus-problem . I installed a new Windows 7 on a spare disc today and before doing anything else, I tried clicking on links in my posts at the PTGui forum and that gave the same redirect action. I am now considering moving my web site to a new server in the UK (it's presently on a GoDaddy server, and I found reports of similar things happening to other users on their systems - but no solutions).

08-11-2012, 08:49 AM

I could solve the first problem by connecting to www.Johnhpanos.com instead of the epq..html and have set this to the forum for other users. But some time later I got the same redirection. What a pity.

I will try to find out as well what happened.

I found this on Google: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=WHy+is+this+link+added+to+a+website+http://perfectoasis.com/showthread.php%3Fsid=5110%3F&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


08-12-2012, 03:18 AM

instead of shooting 4, 8, 4 shots you could try to shoot 8 around @+/- 30 and an extra Zenith +90 and Nadir1 and Nadir2 @-90. You could compare this version concerning CP. 8 shots @0 prevents from having overlap in horizon area on the other way.


08-12-2012, 07:11 AM

My web site was hacked several years ago. The hacker placed a folder with hundreds of links to porn sites. They also deleted every file called index.html. The problem was not with the provider, but with a very easy password I was using. Once I used a very strong password, hacking and virus infections went away. I am with Godaddy.com.

The solution is to always keep a good backup of your web site and use a strong password.


John Houghton
08-12-2012, 10:03 AM
Dennis, Thanks for the advice. I maintain a mirror of the web site on my PC which is used for updating the site, so I automatically have a backup of it. Changing the password is a sensible precaution, but I expect to upload the files to a new server in the next few days anyway. I hope that will deal with the present access problems.

09-03-2012, 11:33 PM
Hello John, Heinz,
i'm back,

i'll try to restart some tests maybe next week, and upload the results of LRS 54 and 56mm ... and see if PTGUi can stitch better than APP.
i delete all my last trials, but i want to try different settings in APP...
I'll let you know anyway.
I tried quickly yesterday a 360 pano i did in Monument valley, and no stitching problem (but there is no reasons of such issues in Landscape) i'll show you the result when editing ;)
Have a great day !!

09-06-2012, 11:22 AM
Thx for response,

Hope you had some great days. I already had a short visit to your great pano. It works for me in Safari. It takes some time, actually at first you get a white page.

Success and fun with all your stitching.


09-07-2012, 02:38 AM
All Right, i'm Back !! (ok, i went to See Terminator 2, 3D in Universal studio ...)

so with little time this morning i was able to try again my settings
in the following link you can see the sawtooth method.

With 54mm (this is LRS) we can see slightly movement, with 56mm this is perfect ...
however as you can see from the pano @56mm there is way to more default in the ceiling ... This is driving me mad !!!
i'm sure if John use PTGui he will have a perfect stitch.
Btw, i DL a trial of PTGUI but i'm not able to get a good stitch, it always says that my control point are bad (even when set manually ...)
i'll send the link to APP forum and to PhotoPano to see if ppl can help me with setting of APP....


Thanks for your help ...

i forget to mention that in APP, i remove all automatic control point, and then add them all manually...

John Houghton
09-07-2012, 06:37 AM
i'm sure if John use PTGui he will have a perfect stitch.
Well, not quite perfect: equirectangular stitch is at http://ge.tt/1SsXUKN/v/0 (1.5MB)
You have images in different orientations - the zenith and two nadirs - and PTGui prefers them all in the same orientation. Turn off auto rotation in the camera to avoid these propblems. You have also used auto white balance. Set a fixed white balance so that you have consistent colour thoughout the shots. (If you shoot RAW, convert with a fixed white balance. Avoid all auto adjustments).

09-07-2012, 07:54 AM
Well, not quite perfect: equirectangular stitch is at http://ge.tt/2eeK9KN/v/0 (1.5MB)
You have images in different orientations - the zenith and two nadirs - and PTGui prefers them all in the same orientation. Turn off auto rotation in the camera to avoid these propblems. You have also used auto white balance. Set a fixed white balance so that you have consistent colour thoughout the shots. (If you shoot RAW, convert with a fixed white balance. Avoid all auto adjustments).

i think i get it !!! :)
I deactivate the Auto rotate, and start a new bunch of pictures, again @-30 and +30 +Z+N, add all control point manually, and i think thats all good ...
this was 1 room, have 6 more to do, with uni color on the wall, that will be a hell of a work, but this will be 4 later, my head is started to ache ... ;)

I'll try this weekend at a different place with these settings and let you know!!!
you can have a look at the equi and the .swf files in the link below (Zip file).


John Thank you so much for your time and patience, i owe you many beers !!! :p

John Houghton
09-07-2012, 08:16 AM
If you have 6 more to do - all the same shooting configuration - shoot them in exactly the same way and use a template to stitch them. PTGui's automatic control point generator will work better after the images are aligned with a template (a project file for a similar successful stitch is applied via File->Apply template).
BTW, I uploaded a revised gepetto3.jpg file in place of the original, as I was able to get a slightly better stitch after making a change to do with the two nadir images and their orientation.

09-11-2012, 10:38 PM
Hello John,

i tried yesterday to improve my NPP position,
here are the results...

as you can see, i still have some slightly error when doing a 360*180 (4shots @ -45, 8 shoots @ 0 and 4 more shots @ 45); 360_Nadir shot with LRS56 URS100.jpg, however the Saw tooth method was OK (Sawtooth_Nadir shot with LRS56 URS100.jpg)

then i move the URS to 99 and to 96. I see some change but dunno which one is better.
i guess i need to complete a sphere to know.
What do you think?

I"m sorry to bother you, specially when i know i'll remove the Nadir afterward, but just want to be close to the perfection (as we all tend to;))

John Houghton
09-12-2012, 07:27 AM
I suggest you accept 56 as the optimum LRS and adjust URS to eliminate the minor parallax at the horizontal level which is evident in the stitch of the 8 images in yout zip file. Then shoot some real panoramas.


05-01-2013, 08:03 AM
hi john, here we are again, i was off during few months of photo, and now i started again,
i did a pano of my bathroom, and found out some slight shifts (specially on the roof):
here (http://jpscolari.fr/2013/01/salle-de-bain-avant-et-apres/)

today, as a public holiday, i try to adjust again LRS and URS.
for LRS; what i did is took a picture of the NN ring of the tripod (004.jpg) and in photoshop, create 2 line in the center of the image, and the Ring should be at the intersection right ? so my LRS in this case is 62mm. then for the URS, i adjust it the same way as the NN manual (see pics 007, 008.jpg) when overlapping these 2 we can see the skewer doesn't move from the tripod...
SO at his point i thought the NNP was set ...
i did as before (4shots at -60, 8shots at 0, 4 shots at 60) and again ... APP wasn't able to align the 16 pictures (i have a 7D, and shot with a Sigma 10-20mm @10mm):confused1::confused1::confused1:

This is really drive me crazy as i dont understand why this is not working as it supposed to !!!

i attached all pictures here (http://ge.tt/9wPgUWf)

Thanks for your help !!

Have a nice day.

John Houghton
05-01-2013, 10:29 AM
for LRS; what i did is took a picture of the NN ring of the tripod (004.jpg) and in photoshop, create 2 line in the center of the image, and the Ring should be at the intersection right ?.
Not right! This is how your nadir looks:


Refer to my tutorial at http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm


John Houghton
05-01-2013, 01:44 PM
Gepetto, despite the bad lower rail setting (it looks to be about 7.5mm off), I managed to get a good stitch. The blank walls means it's hard to find matching features between some images. I've uploaded the project file here: http://ge.tt/7vnfzXf/v/0

BTW, Although you used the camera in manual mode, you had auto white balance set. You should set an appropriate fixed white balance to make blending easier.


05-03-2013, 02:57 AM
hey John,

thanks for your time, i'll set the LRS back to what it was before, because with the sawtooth method it was OK...
i'll try to remember the whit balance also ;)