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View Full Version : M1L + Nikon D300 + Nikon 10.5 + Nadir adapter = HELP!



DennisS
12-23-2011, 09:44 AM
So I unpack and set up my brand new M1L. I am using a Nikon D300 and a Nikon 10.5 lens. I get the rig calibrated and start shooting. When I take a look at the Nadir patch shot, I am disappointed to see the knob on the lower rotator clamp sticking way out into the picture. The knob overlaps the tripod leg in the patch shot rendering the patch shot not useable. It does not matter which way I put the clamp on the rotator. The knob sticks out way too far. I had to fabricate a low profile knob in order to get a useable Nadir patch shot.

I am shooting 6 around + Zenith + Nadir + Nadir patch shot.

For those of you following at home, I am NOT using the lens ring clamp. I am using all the standard stock parts right out of the box. This includes the camera body plate.

Is there something I am missing? Has anyone else been able to use this set up without any modifications?

Wim.Koornneef
12-23-2011, 12:06 PM
Hello Denis,

What about shooting 2 nadir shots 180 degree apart instead of just one nadir shot ?
For my combo ( M1-L+ nadir adapter, Canon 5D, Tokina 10-17@16mm) this works fine.
The advantage is a better overlap with the nadir patch shot..

Wim

John Houghton
12-23-2011, 01:23 PM
Dennis, I do the same as Wim and shoot two nadir shots on the tripod separated by 180 degrees of yaw. It gives the smallest hole to be patched.

John

DennisS
12-23-2011, 03:23 PM
If Nick were to provide a low profile knob, only 1 Nadir shot and 1 patch shot would be required.

http://www.dlsphoto.net/NadarBracket/M1_Nadir.jpg

Glad to know that I did not miss something. This pano head is one great piece of engineering.

Thanks Wim and John for the help.

nick fan
12-23-2011, 07:02 PM
If Nick were to provide a low profile knob, only 1 Nadir shot and 1 patch shot would be required.

http://www.dlsphoto.net/NadarBracket/M1_Nadir.jpg

Glad to know that I did not miss something. This pano head is one great piece of engineering.

Thanks Wim and John for the help.

Hi Dennis,

Thx for your report. Actually, Wim reported this "issue" to me before. And I responded that we could make a low profile knob as an option.
The knob design and placement is a balance of usability and clearance of nadir patch. We started with a low profile screw knob. We found that it didn't tighten enough. We used a low profile lever knob from our old ASQRC2 and found it inconvenient to use as its rotation was limited to only 3/4 circle. So we settled with this current knob. It depends on your expectation of nadir patching. Do you need a patching nadir shot that is perfectly at the original (NPP) position as the other images? It is not absolutely needed. PTGUI VP correction can deal with small offset. Conventional nadir shot taking technique can't even come close as far as accuracy of positioning is concerned. So I think my compromised is justified. But then it is the user to decide what is acceptable.

Nick

DennisS
12-23-2011, 07:21 PM
Hey Nick,

A low profile knob does not need to be any wider than 1/4" with a small .062" shoulder. It does, however, need to be a whole lot larger in diameter. The one pictured is 1.25" and works great. The knob is plenty big enough to allow the clamp to be tightened nice and tight. Even if there was only a 1/2 turn, that would be enough to allow the clamp to open up wide to slide the lower rail out. Since you have a retractable safety pin, it all works. There also appears to be some room to shave off part of the clamp. I swapped out the RD16 and am using the RD4 rotator. That also gives some more room to grab the knob. I just love the modular design of your stuff.

I have always taken just 1 Nadir and 1 patch shot. I have done it this way since before PTGui had its viewpoint correction feature. They say that old habits die hard.

Dennis

nick fan
12-23-2011, 08:14 PM
Hey Nick,

A low profile knob does not need to be any wider than 1/4" with a small .062" shoulder. It does, however, need to be a whole lot larger in diameter. The one pictured is 1.25" and works great. The knob is plenty big enough to allow the clamp to be tightened nice and tight. Even if there was only a 1/2 turn, that would be enough to allow the clamp to open up wide to slide the lower rail out. Since you have a retractable safety pin, it all works. There also appears to be some room to shave off part of the clamp. I swapped out the RD16 and am using the RD4 rotator. That also gives some more room to grab the knob. I just love the modular design of your stuff.

I have always taken just 1 Nadir and 1 patch shot. I have done it this way since before PTGui had its viewpoint correction feature. They say that old habits die hard.

Dennis

Hmm, I guess I misunderstood your problem. Your complain about the knob of QRC. Wim reported the lever knob of nadir adapter being too thick.
for your problem, you can take 6 shots around at -7.5 or -15 deg to reduce the nadir hole. Then you may not need the extra nadir shot. Sounds simpler than replacing the knob of QRC. what do you think? a long extension of QRC knob is needed for some camera with thick body and tripod socket at the front portion. My knob is not very long, many clamps in other names have longer knob.
I do plan to develop lever knob for QRCs. That may be the ultimate fix.

Nick

DennisS
12-24-2011, 10:44 AM
Nick,

The issue is with the clamp mounted on the lower rotator. In the stock configuration, the knob is too long and overlaps the tripod leg in the Nadir patch shot.

http://www.dlsphoto.net/NadarBracket/Original_Nadir.jpg

Replacing the long knob with a shorter one that comes on a different clamp helps, but not enough. A low profile knob will fix this issue. Since it is almost impossible to accuratly move the tripod over the exact same distance each and every time, the more open space there is between components in the Nadir and the Nadir patch, the easier it is to apply the patch shot.

Old dogs do not want to learn new tricks. I don't want to take one little extra Nadir picture rotated 180 degrees apart from the first one, dag nab it!

Dennis

DemonDuck
12-24-2011, 07:00 PM
Can I ask a dumb question -- (he asks and then asks it). Why do you need a quick release system to hold the lower arm to the rotator? Are you that concerned about saving 5 seconds???

DennisS
12-24-2011, 07:11 PM
If the question is directed to me, the only answer I can give is that this is the way the pano head came assembled. There is no way to bolt the rotator onto the lower arm (at least not until my next trip back to the machine shop). The Nadir adapter is bolted onto the opposite end, so there must be some way to slide the assembly left/right. The clamp has been moved from the vertical arm over to the rotator/lower arm assembly. I would just as soon leave the lower arm bolted to the rotator and dispense with the clamp all together. I would rather see the Nadir adapter slide left/right.

DemonDuck
12-24-2011, 09:16 PM
If the question is directed to me, the only answer I can give is that this is the way the pano head came assembled. There is no way to bolt the rotator onto the lower arm (at least not until my next trip back to the machine shop). The Nadir adapter is bolted onto the opposite end, so there must be some way to slide the assembly left/right. The clamp has been moved from the vertical arm over to the rotator/lower arm assembly. I would just as soon leave the lower arm bolted to the rotator and dispense with the clamp all together. I would rather see the Nadir adapter slide left/right.

Those are the half thoughts I had...

DennisS
12-24-2011, 09:27 PM
DD,

Actually, those half thoughts are good. After thinking about the lower arm/rotator mount, I could not think of any reason to maintain the quick release feature. Unless you swap out cameras a lot on the same pano head, it makes no sense to provide a way to quickly make the adjustment. Once you set it, you should forget it.

I just finished modifying the clamp. I removed the knob and bolt, drilled and tapped the 1/4-20 hole all the way through to the center 3/8 hole, counter sunk the 1/4" thru hole then installed a stainless steel 1/4-20 countersink bolt. Now the bolt head is flush with the edge of the clamp. No more knob sticking out into the picture. Problem solved.

I no longer need the rail stop I made for the lower rail. Since the rotator/lower arm assembly will not be taken apart for storage,there is no need for the rail stop.

Thanks DD for "thinking out loud". The solution was easier than I thought it would be.

Dennis

DemonDuck
12-24-2011, 10:46 PM
DD,

Actually, those half thoughts are good. After thinking about the lower arm/rotator mount, I could not think of any reason to maintain the quick release feature. Unless you swap out cameras a lot on the same pano head, it makes no sense to provide a way to quickly make the adjustment. Once you set it, you should forget it.

I just finished modifying the clamp. I removed the knob and bolt, drilled and tapped the 1/4-20 hole all the way through to the center 3/8 hole, counter sunk the 1/4" thru hole then installed a stainless steel 1/4-20 countersink bolt. Now the bolt head is flush with the edge of the clamp. No more knob sticking out into the picture. Problem solved.

I no longer need the rail stop I made for the lower rail. Since the rotator/lower arm assembly will not be taken apart for storage,there is no need for the rail stop.

Thanks DD for "thinking out loud". The solution was easier than I thought it would be.

Dennis

Risking the beating of a dead horse he said, what about eliminating the clamp altogether and making the necessary holes to attach the lower arm directly to the rotator ala NN3/4/5?

nick fan
12-24-2011, 10:50 PM
Nick,

The issue is with the clamp mounted on the lower rotator. In the stock configuration, the knob is too long and overlaps the tripod leg in the Nadir patch shot.

http://www.dlsphoto.net/NadarBracket/Original_Nadir.jpg

Replacing the long knob with a shorter one that comes on a different clamp helps, but not enough. A low profile knob will fix this issue. Since it is almost impossible to accuratly move the tripod over the exact same distance each and every time, the more open space there is between components in the Nadir and the Nadir patch, the easier it is to apply the patch shot.

Old dogs do not want to learn new tricks. I don't want to take one little extra Nadir picture rotated 180 degrees apart from the first one, dag nab it!

Dennis

First of all, the QRC knob should be pointing to the back of camera. It won't be seen in 6 shots wround. If you shoot at -15 deg, then you don't need the nadir shot. You only need one patch shot.
http://www.fromparis.com/technical/a-smaller-hole-on-the-nadir-less-work-in-photoshop.html

Nick

nick fan
12-25-2011, 02:25 AM
Risking the beating of a dead horse he said, what about eliminating the clamp altogether and making the necessary holes to attach the lower arm directly to the rotator ala NN3/4/5?

If you like, you can get the NN4 instead.

The Ultimate Modular series is an Arca Swiss compatible system whose parts can mix and match with other Arca Swiss compatible system.
The rotator + clamp also allows single row panos by using the upper rail + clamp. We have not yet offered this bundle. But it can be built by ordering individual parts. We will also have a rotator with integral clamp too.
It is far simpler to mount a nadir adapter at the end of rail instead of sliding it. It will be lighter too.

Nick

DemonDuck
12-25-2011, 07:29 AM
Nick, I just was "thinking out loud" again as a comment to Dennis. I have all the equipment I need -- right now.

But as long as we are talking -- a long time ago, I suggested a ball head with a long neck. A 6-12 inch neck. That single ball head would take the place of a leveler and a nadir adapter. I use a ball head right now as a nadir adapter when I use a tripod but the neck is not quite long enough to ultimately eliminate all of the tripod. I usually have to patch a little piece of one leg -- depending on how the shadows fall.

The way I use it is just flop it over so my NN3 sticks straight out at 90 degrees then adjust the upper arm to point the camera at the nadir point. Real easy and fast. And fast is good outside when shadows are moving.

DemonDuck
12-25-2011, 07:38 AM
Nick, I just was "thinking out loud" again as a comment to Dennis. I have all the equipment I need -- right now.

But as long as we are talking -- a long time ago, I suggested a ball head with a long neck. A 6-12 inch neck. That single ball head would take the place of a leveler and a nadir adapter. I use a ball head right now as a nadir adapter when I use a tripod but the neck is not quite long enough to ultimately eliminate all of the tripod. I usually have to patch a little piece of one leg -- depending on how the shadows fall.

The way I use it is just flop it over so my NN3 sticks straight out at 90 degrees then adjust the upper arm to point the camera at the nadir point. Real easy and fast. And fast is good outside when shadows are moving.

That method may be problematic for heavy rigs. But you have a solution for heavy rigs. And given that the camera of the year is the NEX 7 which weighs only 15 ounces, light rigs are going to be the norm. Why carry around a huge, obsolete mirror box camera when you can carry something that will just about fit in your pocket and take better pictures?

DennisS
12-25-2011, 07:55 AM
If you shoot at -15 deg, then you don't need the nadir shot.
Nick,

If you tilt down 15 degrees, can the Zenith be covered with 1 shot or do you need two? I have always shot 6 @ 0 + Z + N + patch with the 10.5 lens.


The Ultimate Modular series is an Arca Swiss compatible system whose parts can mix and match with other Arca Swiss compatible system.
Having the pano head in my hands for just a couple of days, I can definately see the advantage of the modular design. Mixing and matching parts from various other pano heads is a breeze. It is when you start moving parts around that you see how much thought has gone into each and every piece of the system. Nick definately did his homework on this one.

Dennis

nick fan
12-25-2011, 09:34 AM
Nick,

If you tilt down 15 degrees, can the Zenith be covered with 1 shot or do you need two? I have always shot 6 @ 0 + Z + N + patch with the 10.5 lens.

yes, see the thumbnails.

http://www.fromparis.com/images/technical/stitcher_unlimited_04_big.jpg

nick

DennisS
12-25-2011, 09:57 AM
Why carry around a huge, obsolete mirror box camera when you can carry something that will just about fit in your pocket and take better pictures?
If all you used was the 16mm pancake kit lens, the NEX will fit in your pocket. Put an 18-200 and you had better have really big pockets. Better pictures? After having shot both the D300 and the NEX-5, if I were forced to carry only 1 camera on vacation, the D300 would win hands down. For cycling/hiking where I am mostly outdoors with good light, the NEX wins. If I were to travel to a country where I will most likely never go back to, the D300 is the winner. I would not want to shoot with only 1 fisheye lens. I would want to use a 18-200. Put that on the NEX and it's small size no longer works as well.

Nick,

I just tried the -15 tilt. Works GREAT! No extra shots required. As a matter of fact, it eliminates the Nadir shot. Putting the clamp on the rotator in the proper direction combined with shooting -15 removes the knob overlap issue. Sure helps to RTFM. Oh wait, there was no FM! I had to guess. Looks like I guessed wrong. This old dog may just start shooting -15 tilt with the 10.5 lens.

Dennis

DemonDuck
12-25-2011, 11:25 AM
If all you used was the 16mm pancake kit lens, the NEX will fit in your pocket. Put an 18-200 and you had better have really big pockets. Better pictures? After having shot both the D300 and the NEX-5, if I were forced to carry only 1 camera on vacation, the D300 would win hands down. For cycling/hiking where I am mostly outdoors with good light, the NEX wins. If I were to travel to a country where I will most likely never go back to, the D300 is the winner. I would not want to shoot with only 1 fisheye lens. I would want to use a 18-200. Put that on the NEX and it's small size no longer works as well.

Dennis

Really? Even if you can put all your Nikon lenses on the NEX 7 and it still would be lighter and smaller and better? Ok.....

Nikon D300
Effective pixels 12.3 megapixels
Sensor photo detectors 13.1 megapixels
Sensor size APS-C (23.6 x 15.8 mm)
Weight (inc. batteries) 925 g (2.04 lb / 32.63 oz)
Dimensions 147 x 114 x 74 mm (5.79 x 4.49 x 2.91")

Sony NEX 7
Effective pixels 24.3 megapixels
Sensor photo detectors 24.7 megapixels
Sensor size APS-C (23.5 x 15.6 mm)
Weight (inc. batteries) 400 g (0.88 lb / 14.11 oz)
Dimensions 120 x 67 x 43 mm (4.72 x 2.64 x 1.69")

DennisS
12-25-2011, 12:25 PM
DemonDuck,

Discussing which is better does not answer questions about using the M1L pano head and Nadir adapter. That is what this thread is about.

If you want to get into a discussion about which is better, please start a different thread. In the end, it is not the camera that makes the images, it is the photographer.

Dennis

DemonDuck
12-25-2011, 01:26 PM
DemonDuck,

Discussing which is better does not answer questions about using the M1L pano head and Nadir adapter. That is what this thread is about.

If you want to get into a discussion about which is better, please start a different thread. In the end, it is not the camera that makes the images, it is the photographer.

Dennis

You're right. Sorry. Got carried away. Won't do it again.