5D+16-35LII problems [Archive] - Nodal Ninja Forum

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Ben Rubinstein
04-04-2011, 04:41 AM
Hi,

I chose the NN5 mainly due to the tables of nodal points that NN provide. The one for the Sigma 8mm is spot on perfect. With the 16-35L the supplied figures were out (they don't say which focal length they are for anyway) and using both the methods described here (http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm) I found it to be 128mm on the top rail, 10mm more than in the NN table.

Problem is that I can't get a good stitch using either Autopano or PTGui, they both come up with the same alignment problem in the same place with a very near object alignment with a far object and nothing I can do with the software makes any difference (I know AP very well).

The same panorama in exactly the same spot is perfect using the fisheye. I've spent 7 hours already trying different configurations, etc but not getting anywhere. I had assumed that with the correct nodal point having very near/far objects would be irrelevant, it's why I bought the NN5, Can anyone help me?

nick fan
04-04-2011, 09:59 AM
there are 2 sources of stitching errors. one is incorrect NPP, the other is wrong lens parameter. If you follow John's tutorial, you should trust your NPP. Have you try to add some manual control points to force the images to stitch? Can you provide some sample images for others to inspect parallax or try stitching?

here is a good free online storage (5GB free account) that will allow you to backup files and share them
https://www.sugarsync.com/referral?rf=d3jzjvp4emhag



Nick

Ben Rubinstein
04-04-2011, 10:08 AM
Tried with manual points, no luck. Here are the pics if anyone wants a go, the problem is with the kitchen cupboards and the beam above (please excuse the mess!).

www.studio-beni.net/pano.zip

If anyone has some figures that I should be using for a 5D with a 16-35LII @ 16mm instead which will give me better results I'd be happy to try and report back.

John Houghton
04-04-2011, 11:17 AM
The images stitched without any trouble using PTGui (control points automatically generated + a few manually placed ones to improve the spread). Project file and stitched output is at: http://www.johnhpanos.com/pano-beni.zip.

John

Ben Rubinstein
04-04-2011, 11:26 AM
That is indeed perfect, I'm not an expert with PTGui but I have to work out why the image needs manual control points, does that not usually point to a nodal point error or is it just a difficult image for software to deal with automatically?

Ben Rubinstein
04-04-2011, 01:16 PM
I've spent a few hours now trying to get it to work in Autopano Pro. Looks as bad as when I was trying to do interiors without a nodal point solution. Very disheartening as this is what I bought the NN5 for, I shouldn't have to buy new software (I'm using PTGui as trial) to get a stitch when I'm stitching with nodal point rotation. Not sure where I go from here...

John Houghton
04-04-2011, 02:00 PM
Ben, It often happens that the distribution of auto generated control points is less than ideal. For the images to align well all along the overlap areas, you need control points spread all along those areas, so that the optimizer can calculate the distortion correction parameters a,b, and c effectively. Frequently the control points generator neglects the corners of the images, so it's advisable to make good any deficiencies by manually assigning a few points. Once the lens parameters have been evaluated reasonably well, these can be used in subsequent projects, thus relieving the optimizer of having to calculate them, in which case the ideal spread of points is no longer necessary. In fact, with good lens parameters applied either manually or with a template, you can manage with only two points per overlap, though a few more will usually be helpful. (Any saved project file can be used as a template for presetting image and lens parameters).

You might like to refer to this short description of how PTGui's optimization process works: http://wiki.panotools.org/Optimization.

John

nick fan
04-05-2011, 03:29 AM
I've spent a few hours now trying to get it to work in Autopano Pro. Looks as bad as when I was trying to do interiors without a nodal point solution. Very disheartening as this is what I bought the NN5 for, I shouldn't have to buy new software (I'm using PTGui as trial) to get a stitch when I'm stitching with nodal point rotation. Not sure where I go from here...

No an Autopano Pro user, is there a way to pre-calibrate the lens or to input the lens parameter?

You can also try to correct for the lens distortion before stitching. DXO Pro has good lens correction. Ptlens should have the lens parameter for your camera and lens. PS CS5 has lens profiles too but not sure how accurate they are.

After reading many reviews and user manuals, I conclude that Ptgui is the easiest stitcher to use for fisheye and wide angle lenses.

Nick

PS You can try to increase the overlap by shooting more images. It may help AutoPano to find better lens parameter.
it seems that Kolor is working on the lens profiles/ parameters
http://www.autopano.net/forum/t10427-lens-correction-plugin

John Houghton
04-05-2011, 06:12 AM
The images provided are very noisy - maybe enhanced by the processing. This appears to cause problems for the Autopano Pro control points generator. One image (#4) had no points at all. I applied the noise reduction option in CS5 and that enabled a decent stitch to be obtained, though not without a few minor stitching errors. The control points were very heavily clustered in the middle of the images, which is no doubt the reason for the stitching errors. Unfortunately, it's difficult to persuade Autopano Pro to place additional points exactly where you want them. Producing cleaner images in the first place would help a lot, I think. f/11, ISO800 were the settings used.

John

hindenhaag
04-05-2011, 06:17 AM
Ben,

I got the same frustration yesterday evening using Autopano Pro to stitch your pictures. But in first case I am a PTGuiPro user. Your pics stitched very easy as John already told us - for experienced users.

I think the best way to solve your questions is to place this special problem to autopano forum. You could also ask mediavets, who is moderator on the forum:

http://www.mediavets.co.uk/

I believe he can easily help you.

@Nick, they seem to use lens profiles of PTlens or profiles of Adobe. Adobe lens profiles are set up by customers.

http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/lensprofile_creator/

Cheers,
Heinz

BTW: I added the Canon modules of your set to my DxOPro and corrected them with the standard set up: Correct CA, lens distortion, Vignetting, EV, DxO denoise.

Pics are available in Jpeg and Tiff.

http://homepage.mac.com/hindenhaag/filechute/BenPanoDXOPics.zip

Ben Rubinstein
04-05-2011, 07:20 AM
I've been trying this afternoon with multilayer and 50% overlap. Still no joy. I don't want the noise to be a problem as that means I'll be limited to only lower ISO's which would be a problem. I've tried in Autopano both with the Adobe lens profiles being applied and without (these ones are without) but it doesn't seem to help.

I think next stop is to ask on the Autopano forum, the nodal point seems to be correct so it's a software issue. Rather fustrating.

Ben Rubinstein
04-05-2011, 07:23 AM
I've been trying this afternoon with multilayer and 50% overlap. Still no joy. I don't want the noise to be a problem as that means I'll be limited to only lower ISO's which would be a problem. I've tried in Autopano both with the Adobe lens profiles being applied and without (these ones are without) but it doesn't seem to help.

I think next stop is to ask on the Autopano forum, the nodal point seems to be correct so it's a software issue. Rather fustrating.

John Houghton
04-05-2011, 07:45 AM
Ben, I would be interested to see a RAW image for IMG_4678. Would it be possible to upload it? It may be possible to do something about the noise.

John

Ben Rubinstein
04-05-2011, 07:50 AM
I've already deleted them, I'll shoot a new set and upload both iso 100 & 800 RAW's tonight if that's ok. Kids having supper right now and would prefer not to be decapitated by the wife... :-)

John Houghton
04-05-2011, 07:53 AM
I wouldn't want you to lose your head over this.

John

hindenhaag
04-05-2011, 09:07 AM
Ben and John,

I have added the DxO Corrected set of Ben to my last email.

Cheers,
Heinz

John Houghton
04-05-2011, 01:56 PM
Thanks Heinz. The corrected set of images work well in PTGui, but actually the distortion in this lens is already very low. Optimizing the shift parameters is by far the most important factor, and PTGui again gave a perfect stitch. Autopano Pro does a better stitch with the corrected images, but there were still some minor stitching errors visible in my test.

badders
04-06-2011, 01:19 AM
Hi Ben,

I've stitched your set of images using AutoPano Giga 2.5.1. Final result here (http://www.360tacticalvr.com/support/studio-beni-apg.zip) along with a QTVR and the project file. Looking at the images and the result from PTGUI I'm not convinced you've nailed the NPP on the NN5. PTGUI I find is more "forgiving" than APG. Can you take a set of 6 shots around, this time tilting the upper arm DOWN -15 degs? That will let us look at the position of the upper/lower arms.

Ben Rubinstein
04-06-2011, 03:30 AM
Hi Ben,

I've stitched your set of images using AutoPano Giga 2.5.1. Final result here (http://www.360tacticalvr.com/support/studio-beni-apg.zip) along with a QTVR and the project file. Looking at the images and the result from PTGUI I'm not convinced you've nailed the NPP on the NN5. PTGUI I find is more "forgiving" than APG. Can you take a set of 6 shots around, this time tilting the upper arm DOWN -15 degs? That will let us look at the position of the upper/lower arms.

Hi,

Here is another pano (raw files) with the lens tilted down 15 degrees (one click down from the upper arm)

www.studio-beni.net/pano2.zip

Again please pardon the mess, mid spring cleaning.

BTW I bought the NN5 from you guys, incredible service, more than happy!

badders
04-06-2011, 04:32 AM
Ben,

Sorry my bad - can you shoot @ -30 degs down? -15 degs isn't enough. Also, just upload JPEGS as I'm not needing the RAW images.

Ben Rubinstein
04-06-2011, 04:38 AM
I'm going to do some rechecking of the NPP, see if that is what most of the problem is, I'll report back soon...

John Houghton
04-06-2011, 05:51 AM
Ben, Your 15 degree down shots stitch flawlessly in PTGui. The optimizer report shows an average control point distance of 0.65 pixels and a maximum of 1.66, which is very good - and this is with a wide vertical spread of points. I can see no evidence of any parallax problems, so your upper rail setting is fine. Taking two shots with the camera pointing vertically down, rotating the head through 180 degrees between the shots is also a good way to check both the lower rail setting and also the rotational position of the camera on its mounting to the upper rail. (You check for parallax movement of the head against the floor in the background).

John

badders
04-06-2011, 05:58 AM
The -15 degs down also stitched great in APG 2.5.1 with a Global RMS of 2.96

Ben Rubinstein
04-06-2011, 10:53 AM
Didn't for me in APP, had significant misalignment, especially in the tiles. However using a custom lens profile easily made, I'm getting 100% perfect stitches every time with PTGui. Seems to be a lens distortions thing....

badders
04-06-2011, 12:37 PM
I'll upload the APG project file for you to look at. If your now getting good results with PTGUI then at least you know the hardware is setup correctly.

Ben Rubinstein
04-06-2011, 12:47 PM
I'd appreciate that!

I'm now running triple layer (full 360X180) pano's using PTGui and this profile with 100% perfect results, ditto HDR pano's. I will of course try it out tomorrow in different locations, outdoors for example, to check that this profile I've been given is not for this location only which would rather defeat the purpose.

Many thanks again and I'm very glad I bought one of the last NN5's from you, it's much better than I could even have hoped for, I'm glad I chose it over the RRS solution to be honest eventhough I do own the RRS pano elements package. The NN5 seems to have been designed specifically for the working pro in the field who wants the maximum of ease with the least amount of fuss and the ability to concentrate on the job at hand. The little screw in stops for use with a popular lens is just genius, you can be set up in low light without squinting to read figures with a torch or getting a crick in your neck when positioned on the edge of a balcony. Very well thought through and that's even before I start talking about the click stops, the build quality, etc.

hindenhaag
04-07-2011, 11:34 AM
Hi Ben,

Just like to report that I as well got a good result with AGP 2.5.1 with a Global RMS of 2.75. I have changed my preferences in "Optimize": from "quick" to "Heavy". Advanced preferences: I clicked 1) 2) 3) only CP below RMS 5.0 5).
You could use 6? When you changed NPP because of pole pano shots Z+N for example.

I added Cp between shot 3-4 and 4-5. With these changes I could at least get RMS 2.75.

So when you train a little bit you should get good results with Autopano as well. But still I prefer PTGui: never change a winning team:th_love:

Sucess,
Heinz