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View Full Version : 20D and 10-22 lens with Nodal Ninja 3 and RD-8 Rotator settings



Bsmooth
09-23-2009, 12:57 PM
Just got my Nodal Ninja 3 and wondered what the setup should be. I know theres some way to find it using a grid, but it looks a bit confusing. Plus once the camera is setup at the nodal point it should be left that way for all focal settings from 10-22 correct?
Also what would the angle settings be for taking images?
What a well made product, now all I have to do is learn how to use it !

Bill Bailey
09-23-2009, 03:19 PM
Just got my Nodal Ninja 3 and wondered what the setup should be. I know theres some way to find it using a grid, but it looks a bit confusing. Plus once the camera is setup at the nodal point it should be left that way for all focal settings from 10-22 correct?
Also what would the angle settings be for taking images?
What a well made product, now all I have to do is learn how to use it !

Hello,
We have settings published here: http://www.nodalninja.com/support/camerasettings.html
If you don't see your settings there are links to tutorials that show you how to find them on same page.
I would start out with single row panos first to learn the workflow - once you can do single row for the 10mm focal length you can build into multi-row. Assuming you have a Canon for full sperical you will need to shoot about 12 shots around times two rows - 1 row about 20 degrees above 0 mark and one row 20 degrees below 0 mark then shoot the up and down shot. Sounds complicated but once you start rolling with it things will fall together quickly.

Bsmooth
10-03-2009, 08:57 PM
Ok guys I did a pano of my local park. I used a NN3 and RD-8 Rotator, PTGUI, and a Canon 10-22 lens with my 20D. I'm trying to figure out what settings I should be shooting my 360 panos. Just noticed after looking at the info in Photoshop I shot 8 images at a focal length of 12.1. Could that be the issue perhaps? I think maybe after taking a look at the chart that Bill Bailey put together that maybe it should have been shot at 14mm instead of 12.Would that have made a difference?
The reason I asked is PTGUI had issues with no control points for the 7th shot in the series. Also there were power lines that didn't connect in the pano, once it was done.

John Houghton
10-04-2009, 12:05 AM
If no control points were assigned automatically for one image, assign them yourself manually. Try to get a good spread of points, so that the optimizer can align the images all along the overlap area. Don't put points on anything likely to move between shots - such as clouds, water, traffic etc. Overhead wires may not align well because they are possibly moving about in the wind. Otherwise it will be because of the panohead setup, or (more likely) optimization. Try switching into Advanced mode (via the button on the right of the Project Assistant panel). SElect the Optimizer tab and then choose "heavy + lens shift" in the minimize lens distortion option.

John

hindenhaag
10-04-2009, 05:04 AM
Hi,

first thing is, that you have to find out the NNP for every zoom setting of your lens, cause it changes. Cause your lens is not part of the data base, first thing to do is to works out your NNPs. You find hints in john's tutorial.

Having succeded, go to frank van der pol's panorama calculator to find out about the degrees and number of shoots you have to take. I prefer to work with 30% overlap between shots, cause depending on the scene PtGui might not find a control point.

I like to spend more time at the scene and to take 6 shots instead of 4 and have some security for stitching. I fell saver with this than to have to go back to the scene which means you might have lost a nice moment.

Anyway, i feel you can not stitch correctly cause you working with a wrong NNP.

Success

Heinz

Bsmooth
10-07-2009, 09:42 AM
Ok I received my new 10-22 lens yesterday, since I thought my first one had focusing issues, still not sure. Anyways I want to get the nodal points correct. I am using the method of using a grid and aligning points in back of it to check for errors.I have all the shots shooting at focal lenths 12,14,17 and 20.Here are the settings:
Settings at Focal length 12
Lower Arm Set at 5.1

Upper arm set at 10.7

Settings at focal Length 14
Lower Arm Set at 5.1

Upper arm set at 10.3

Settings at focal Length 17
Lower Arm Set at 5.1

Upper arm set at 10.3

Settings at focal Length 20
Lower Arm Set at 5.1

Upper arm set at 10.3
Could someone check out these and see If I'm close? I could also send the images as well,I want to make sure I have these right !

hindenhaag
10-07-2009, 10:41 AM
Hi,

when we trust the lower rail settings from our colleagues, go to the list of camera settings mentioned by Bill, go to canon, go 20D, open whatever lens you like, you can see the "A" distance for the lower rail setting: NN3 42,5 without camera plate and 52,5 with CP1. So your lower rail setting seams to be off. Set your cam to pitch -60?, which means move it down to -60, rotator set to 60?, and take 6 shots around. Stich, an compare it to the tutorial by John.

When your lower rail setting is wrong, you have to find out the NNP once again with the right setting.

When you are ready to go and you are not shure, you may send the fotos. You reach me via IM.

Try hard :wink:

Heinz

Bsmooth
10-08-2009, 08:10 AM
Well I moved it to 5.2 on the lower rail and it seems to be better. I rechecked my nodal point and also took a 360 nodal around the tripod to check for the sawtooth that was in John's tutorial. Thi is the result I got in th picture. It doesn't quite align,but there isn't the one way sawtooth that was in the tutorial. I can't move it any more towards 5.3 because its hitting the stop.Is this ok as far as centering goes in my attached image?

John Houghton
10-08-2009, 08:47 AM
How did you get a stitch looking like that? A rectilinear projection would have nice straight lines for the floor tiling, which gives confidence in the stitching.

John

Bsmooth
10-08-2009, 12:00 PM
I just used PTGUI with the basic settings. I thought the lines on the flooring looked pretty good other than the distortion from the lens.I'm not even sure what the settings were. Basically I just brought the 4 images in from Photoshop after I changed them to Jpeg's. Then after I brought them in did an alignment and then turned them into a panorama. I find PTGUI rather strange, because I can bring the same exact images into it 3 or 4 times and get 3 or 4 different looking panoramas. Just now I did it over again and what I got didn't even come close to what i had done earlier today.
But I looked at the control point distances(which are supposed to be close arent they?) and some were 400-500 and I eliminated those and put closer ones in and pretty much got the same image, where all the lines on the floor connect now.
I'm finding PTGUI to have a lot more options than I can understand at the moment. theres not a great deal of info that i can find either, but I'm still looking.
BTW is the shot supposed to look perfectly round just like the tripod looks?

John Houghton
10-08-2009, 01:34 PM
It's up to you to select the output projection and field of view. For the nadir, select rectilinear projection on the Panorama Editor window (green square icon and use the sliders to set the view to about 70x70 degrees. You need to check the assignment of the control points to make sure there are points only on the floor and not on any part of the tripod or panohead or on you. So select Advanced mode vbia the button on the right of the Project Assistant and select the Control Points tab to step through pairs of images 0-1, 1-2, 2-3 ... 5-0 etc. and delete errant points. Then visit the optimizer tab and re-optimize.

John

Bsmooth
10-08-2009, 06:53 PM
Well I set it to 70x70 but If i do that you ca't see the floor at all anymore. I also didn't realize it wasn't just 0,1 1,2 2,3 and 3,4 that had matching points. there were also 0,3 0,4 1,4 etc. Its taking me a bit to get my head around this, but even after doing that the tripod head still doesn't look round, it still has bits that don't quite match very well.
I'm not sure at this point whether the camera is set up incorrectly or its just PTGUI not matching points very well

John Houghton
10-09-2009, 02:08 AM
Well I set it to 70x70 but If i do that you ca't see the floor at all anymore.
Before you set rectilinear and reduce the fov to 70x70 drag the image in the Panorama Editor window to bring the centre of the panohead/tripod to the centre of the window. The floor should stitch reasonably well if control points are well placed. Place all the points manually if necessary. You don't need a huge number.

John

Bsmooth
10-09-2009, 06:41 AM
I really appreciate the help John. Well I redid it again. I eliminated all the control points and did just the floor. I optimized the points and redid the pano again. From what i can see the floor lined up well, but that pano head has a sawtooth look to it going counterclockwise doesn't it ?
This should mean moving the camera ever so slightly to the left right ?
Here's the newest image.

hindenhaag
10-09-2009, 08:59 AM
Hi,

now you are on your way. You are right.

Heinz

hindenhaag
10-09-2009, 09:38 AM
By the way,

go to http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database. Tripod mount measurement EOS 20D is 36,5mm. Entrance Pupil Measurement for EF-S 10-22mm for focal length 10mm is 66mm. So your upper rail setting at zoom 10 should be around 102,5mm:

36.5mm + 66mm. Test this setting. When you have found the NNP, go on.

Take the next zoom setting, move the camera forward for e.g. 10mm and look through your viewfinder whether your reference point does not move. To get an impression of the settings of your lens and for your to get the feeling to find an NNP, it might be handsome to move forward per 1mm. When you feel like "this should be right", take 3 shots, one straight forward, one to the left, one to the right, proof on the monitor or print them.

Heinz

hindenhaag
10-09-2009, 10:21 AM
At least some settings for spherical panorama for your lens. I prefer 30% overlap to be secure.


10mm, 12mm 2 rows rotator 45? 8 stops vertical = upper rail set to 30? , '-30?, Z/N 90?


45? 8 stops 45?
14mm 3 rows 36? 10 stops 0? 90?
45? 8 stops - 45?



45? 8 stops 45?
17mm 3 rows 30? 12 stops 0? 90?
45? 8 stops -45?



45? 8 stops 55?
20mm 4 rows 30? 12 stops 17.5? 90?
30? 12 stops -17,5?
45? 8 stops -55?




Enjoy, Heinz




36? 10 stops 55?
22mm 4 rows 24? 15 stops 17.5? 90?
24? 15 stops -17.5?
36? 10 stops -55?

Bsmooth
10-09-2009, 12:45 PM
Thanks Hindenhaag ! I'm finding something strange. You see I'm shooting straight down onto the tripod where the center allen bolt is. But at first with my other shots I was visually looking in the viewfinder and centering my center point for focusing on the allen screw, by either moving the camera slightly on its mounting plate, or by slightly adjusting the angle of my upper rail(maybe 1/2 a degree or so. Well this time I got everything level. First making sure the upper rail was straight up after leveling the tripod, and then making sure the upper rail was level or perpendicular(straight up). Then I made sure the front of the lens was level also, so it was parallel to the top of my tripod.
Here's the funny part a,after all that I looked through the viewfinder and found the center focus square was at the right distance, but it was not centered on the allen bolt!.There is no way to move that with my setup, its locked in by the mount and how the mount is in the Nodal ninja rail. Nothing I could do here so I proceeded and here's what I got. It looks pretty good, let me know what you think.

hindenhaag
10-09-2009, 11:51 PM
Hi,

looks quite good.

I think you have the right rail setting but you seem to be off the 90?.

- First check the camera plate position on your camera body whether this is really 90? to the front of your body. Either you can use the strips on the side of the cameraplate to check it, or use a triangle to check the plate to one of the camera bodies lines.

Be shure it is really fixed in 90? position.

- There is a very small possible movement fixing the cameraplate to the rail. So use a 2way bubble leveler to check you are really upside down. This will help you as well when you are on the field to take the panos.

- Last, but possible reason, you might have gone out of zoom position moving around, fix the zoom with a tape.


Looking forward to a nice picture or some more hints from ninonians,
:wink:

Heinz

John Houghton
10-10-2009, 12:21 AM
Just a word of caution: when performing tests to determine the NPP, you should always have the focus set to the position normally used for your panoramas. This is because the entrance pupil position may well vary according to focus setting, depending on the design of the lens. So don't focus on the panohead.

John

Bsmooth
10-10-2009, 08:12 AM
Well I asked a neighbor a few days ago If I could shoot the interior of his house, so thats today. So I hope everything is set correctly, otherwise I'll just be wasting my time, and his as well. I'm sure he has better things to do on a Saturday, then let pretty much a stranger shoot his house. But I need to be getting up my nerve a bit If I'm about to do this allthe time for Real estate or businesses.
I'll be shooting in porttrait mode I think with these settings on my 10-22; Focal lrngth 14mm at 45 degrees rotation for a total of 8 shots. So my rotator head should be set for 45 degrees. Might even try an HDR shot who knows If i have time !
Wish me luck , and thanks again for your information, time and patience.

Bsmooth
10-15-2009, 12:08 PM
Ok I finally got a chance to take an interior with the setup i have described. Not sure whats the best way to put a pano here, but please let me know the best way If this is wrong.

John Houghton
10-15-2009, 12:51 PM
There are clearly some some stitching problems in the upper part of the image. Maybe due to the blank walls and the repetitive pattern of the staircase causing problems with control point assignments. Check control points are correctly placed in the affected images and assign some more points accurately if possible and re-optimize Otherwise the stitch looks good.

John

Bsmooth
10-15-2009, 08:45 PM
Well I went over and redid several of the control points in the image. I aligned 2 or 3 along that line that runs along in the 1st and 2nd image,just below the lower railing, however whatever I seem to do results in the same stitching errors along the upper part of the image. I just wish I could figure out why. I had a similar image outside in the park and this was where the stitching image occurred there as well, in the upper part where the power lines are.
Now I'm not sure whether its my nodal point being incorrect or the stitching !

John Houghton
10-16-2009, 12:10 AM
I'm pretty sure the stitching problems are caused by bad placement of some control points. If you have control points assigned in the vicinity of the stitching errors, then you should be seeing large maximum cp distance errors reported by the optimizer. It should be easy to sort out. Unfortunately, I cannot be more helpful without having copies of your images and project file. If you can make some half size jpegs and the project file available, I can probably put things right in a matter of minutes.

John

hindenhaag
10-16-2009, 05:55 AM
Hi,

as John tells you it would be nice to have copies of your images. What software do you use?
You will realize in the future, to set cp's in areas of nearly no difference, a white wall, or with repeating patterns like your pillows or square plates on a ceiling is very tricky. Specially when you have to place them on a high zoom level you have to be shure to pick the same pillow. In PTGui, after having placed the first points manually, you can let PTGui find the points itself and watch them being placed automatically from one side to the other. Having optimized i try to reduce the cp distance to 10 and lower to come out with a better result.

Looks quite nice your pano.

Heinz

Bsmooth
10-16-2009, 07:06 AM
I would be glad to make the images available, just not sure how. I can make the project available, but its in full size I think. Should I open the project and then save it at half size? Also what is the best way to go about handling these types of projects? Should I just ignore the all the control points that PTGUI assigns and just manually place all of my own instead?
Hindenhaag as far as software I am guessing you mean what editing software. If thats the case I use Photoshop CS3.
May I send each of you the images somehow, or is there some other way?

John Houghton
10-16-2009, 08:03 AM
Resize the images to half their dimensions and save at jpeg quality 8 in Photoshop. (If you are on a Windows PC and have the free utility Irfanview, you can quickly do this resizing in a batch run). Parcel up the jpegs and a copy of the project file exactly as it is now in a Zip archive or RAR. You can download WinZip if need be.

Then you can send the archive file with one of these free services:

http://www.filedropper.com/
http://www.rapishare.com
http://www.sendthisfile.com
http://www.yousendit.com
http://www.mailbigfile.com

I haven't checked all these recently, but most should be still operational.

My email address is j.houghton at ntlworld dot com

John