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View Full Version : FC-E8 + P5100 on a NN3 Lower rail



etegration
09-10-2008, 11:44 AM
I am using this light weight setup and am wonder is this happening to others. My UR-E20 is touching the knob.

http://moonshine.homedns.org:2655/pano/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/clearance_touching.jpg

I can adjust it to be like the following, just missing both ends...

http://moonshine.homedns.org:2655/pano/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/clearance.jpg

but the 2nd settings will take a picture with the lower rail in it., yes yes a nadir will remove it but am wondering the setup for now first. I tried using the full NN3 setup:

http://moonshine.homedns.org:2655/pano/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/withupperrail.jpg

and it's hellava lighter (of course) compared to my usual 40D + 10-22mm setup. :wink: Do you use your setup with the UR-E20 touching the knob?

nick fan
09-10-2008, 08:16 PM
We are introducing the new Nodal Ninja 180 this month. It will work with lens for dual shot stitching. NN3/5 lower rail is not designed for use with fisheye lens. You need the upper assembly. But a portion of the view will be blocked by the upper arms for fisheye with 180 deg view. We can make an adapter to overcome this problem by extending the lower rotator to the front. I hope you understand what I mean. :biggrin:


nick

etegration
09-11-2008, 01:09 AM
There is no way you would be anywhere near the NPP as the lens needs to be over the centerline of the tripod and this is where the tension knob is. This makes your lens around 2 1/2" too far forward.
You will "always" capture the panohead in the nadir area because it is the location you must rotate NPP of the lens around. Better you rethink what you are doing, because everything you are showing is wrong.

Aussie Ninja


I do not get you. That setting allow me to stitch perfectly just that the touching of the lens onto the knob is having me worries about scratches.

i manage to stitch this using the above "touching" settings http://tinyurl.com/5mtzz5 where the UR-E20 is touching the knob.

etegration
09-11-2008, 01:15 AM
We are introducing the new Nodal Ninja 180 this month. It will work with lens for dual shot stitching. NN3/5 lower rail is not designed for use with fisheye lens. You need the upper assembly. But a portion of the view will be blocked by the upper arms for fisheye with 180 deg view. We can make an adapter to overcome this problem by extending the lower rotator to the front. I hope you understand what I mean. :biggrin:


nick


Hi Nick, yes, i saw the NN 180 and provided a link from my site. :biggrin:

I understand that the NN3 lower rail may not have been designed for this lens, camera or converter but it sure works even using having to shoot with a little of the lower rail in view on all 4 shots (90 degrees per shot, 4 shots total) since i take one last nadir anyways. I'll stick to upper and lower rails setup for now and like i say, it's still lighter than a dslr mounted but i am finding the limitation the P5100 is having on things like simple lighting control i can do with my 40D. That's the trade off i guess.

I am using both the upper and lower rails NN3 for now and nothing seems to be blocking with the fisheye lens with the settings of

Lower Rail - 4
Upper Rail - 81 with T Adapter markings.

It works perfectly.

nick fan
09-11-2008, 07:50 AM
you can raise up the camera by using a QR system which is tipically >20mm thick.


nick

etegration
09-12-2008, 12:06 AM
you can raise up the camera by using a QR system which is tipically >20mm thick.


nick


thank you for the suggestions.



http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239/smoothimages/panorama_forums/fc-e8_coolpix5000_nn_sph-1.jpg

Nodal Ninja SPH-1 (very old) fitted with Nikon Coolpix 5000 and Nikon FC-E8 Fisheye Lens with correct lens position for rotating around the Entrance Pupil (EP) No Parallax Point (NPP)
Yes, you do capture some of the panohead (to the right) but it is of no consequence (because of image overlap) if you shoot 3 photos at 120 degrees.

Aussie Ninja


A picture really tell a thousand words. Thank you aussieninja.

etegration
09-13-2008, 01:47 PM
You are welcome :wink:

Aussie Ninja


I managed to do it!

http://moonshine.homedns.org:2655/pano/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/sideways2.jpg

nick fan
09-13-2008, 07:08 PM
I managed to do it!

http://moonshine.homedns.org:2655/pano/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/sideways2.jpg


I guess you should mount the QR on the T-adapter instead. This will give you reproducible positioning of camera.


nick

etegration
09-14-2008, 07:39 AM
Very good, it looks a little like a NN180 :wink:

I assume you now stitch these shots with a lot more accuracy?

Aussie Ninja


It's a lot more accurate but the bubble level keeps appearing on the nadir shot even on the final pano no matter where I try to stand to take the nadir. See http://moonshine.homedns.org:2655/pano/fullscreens/temp/2.jpg

and yes, I was watching CSI Miami. :biggrin:

etegration
09-14-2008, 07:43 AM
I guess you should mount the QR on the T-adapter instead. This will give you reproducible positioning of camera.


nick


Another problem i wish to overcome and maybe with the NN 180 it could be done is accessing the battery and SD card compartment without having to dismantle the whole setup. That was one big advantage for the NN3 on my 350D then my 40D all along. I can remove the battery for charging without having to remove/ unscrew anything.

With the NN T-Adaptor, it does not block out the whole compartment on the P5100 but accessing it is not possible as the hinge is blocked halfway while opening it. It could well snap it off if i force and with the above image, i have to remove the T-Adaptor then the Velbon quick release plate before i can take out the battery and/ or SD card.

etegration
09-17-2008, 08:36 PM
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239/smoothimages/panorama_forums/fc-e8_coolpix5000_nn_sph-1.jpg

Nodal Ninja SPH-1 (very old) fitted with Nikon Coolpix 5000 and Nikon FC-E8 Fisheye Lens with correct lens position for rotating around the Entrance Pupil (EP) No Parallax Point (NPP)
Yes, you do capture some of the panohead (to the right) but it is of no consequence (because of image overlap) if you shoot 3 photos at 120 degrees.

Aussie Ninja


Hi Aussie Ninja, this settings seems to be getting awkard. You have a similiar setup to assit? I am using a P5100, UR-E20 and a FC-E8 with a Nodal Ninja 3. i still getting parallax error, or is it something else?

Please see http://moonshine.homedns.org:2655/pano/fullscreens/17Sept08_yinghouse3/entrance/entrance.html

and http://moonshine.homedns.org:2655/pano/fullscreens/17Sept08_yinghouse3/kitchen/kit1.html

The above are having some levelling issues too i understand, could be the effects of me removing the ballhead and mounting the NN3 directly on my tripod to save more weight but i think i need help eliminating the parallax errors first.

John Houghton
09-18-2008, 01:27 AM
The above are having some levelling issues too i understand, could be the effects of me removing the ballhead and mounting the NN3 directly on my tripod to save more weight

There are certainly levelling issues, but if you have adjusted the tripod legs to get the NN3 level, then you should be ok. The panorama may have become unlevel during the PTGui processing. It takes about 40 secs to accurately level it using vertical line (t1) control points. See levelling tutorial (http://www.johnhpanos.com/levtut.htm).

John

etegration
09-19-2008, 07:39 AM
The settings I have displayed are not going to be good for your set up because of a number of reasons.

1) Different camera model
2) Different lens adapter
3) To some degree different modal NN panohead

But yes, same lens so my illustration was to give you an understanding of where the (NPP) of this lens was (roughly) and an idea on how to set your camera up on the Nodal Ninja 3 Panohead.

The very first thing you need to do is "prove" the camera is correctly centered on the panohead. As a starting point this can be roughly aligned by looking through your view finder or LCD display and making sure the centerline of the panohead is central on the screen and then this can be seen again by looking at the tripod/panohead in the Nadir position of the stitched panorama image. You will see examples of this in the NN180 thread on this forum. I'm not sure if the Nikon P5100 has the mounting hole in line with the centre of the lens (if not) you will need to use the NN T-30 adapter to reposition the offset difference. It is also VERY IMPORTANT to make sure the T-30 Adapter is square and true to the camera before tightening and should be rechecked after tightening.

Once you have the centerline exact you can then move on to setting the correct (NPP) on the upper rail and this can be confirmed again by looking at the nadir footprint of the stitched panorama image and from these results you can tell if the camera needs to move forward or backwards on the upper rail. The other way of proving parallax errors are eliminated by following a good tutorial like the one John Houghton website (http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm) offers or the version offered on Rosauro's website (http://www.rosaurophotography.com/html/technical7.html) both of which offer good solutions and really if you take your time are easy to understand and complete.

For me or others to offer you better support you need to offer up "un-edited" panoramas with the tripod in place in the panorama image.

I do not have the exact set up you have so I cannot do this set up work for you. I suggest you follow the above and post examples as you progress and then people will assist you to get it correct.

Aussie Ninja




Hi AN, thank you for taking the time to reply.

I'll go about taking a look at the P5100 again this weekend. Here's the unedited images.

http://moonshine.homedns.org:2655/pano/fullscreens/temp/nn3forumshelp/entrance/
http://moonshine.homedns.org:2655/pano/fullscreens/temp/nn3forumshelp/kit/

I am using the T-30 adaptor as you have guessed right, the P5100 lens barrel is offset from the camera's mounting hole. Heading over the the NN180 forum after this. THanks!

nick fan
09-19-2008, 08:12 AM
Another problem i wish to overcome and maybe with the NN 180 it could be done is accessing the battery and SD card compartment without having to dismantle the whole setup. That was one big advantage for the NN3 on my 350D then my 40D all along. I can remove the battery for charging without having to remove/ unscrew anything.

With the NN T-Adaptor, it does not block out the whole compartment on the P5100 but accessing it is not possible as the hinge is blocked halfway while opening it. It could well snap it off if i force and with the above image, i have to remove the T-Adaptor then the Velbon quick release plate before i can take out the battery and/ or SD card.


this is very difficult without customization for your camera. Some cameras have tripod socket very close to the battery door.


nick

John Houghton
09-19-2008, 10:23 AM
I stitched the entrance panorama with PTGui, but noticed something odd about the nadir image. The image circle was offset from the other images - and the image was not just rotated by 180 degrees either, as sometimes happens due to the autorotation sensor. So when the crop is applied to all images, it is in the wrong position for the nadir. That means the warping is wrong. I used viewpoint correction after fixing the crop and got this result: http://www.johnhpanos.com/entrance.mov

John

etegration
09-19-2008, 11:37 AM
this is very difficult without customization for your camera. Some cameras have tripod socket very close to the battery door.


nick



thanks nick. when it comes to point and shoot, i guess it's hard too. The battery compartment can be anywhere. haha



I stitched the entrance panorama with PTGui, but noticed something odd about the nadir image. The image circle was offset from the other images - and the image was not just rotated by 180 degrees either, as sometimes happens due to the autorotation sensor. So when the crop is applied to all images, it is in the wrong position for the nadir. That means the warping is wrong. I used viewpoint correction after fixing the crop and got this result: http://www.johnhpanos.com/entrance.mov

John



Hi John, thanks a lot for reading and trying out the stitching. That's a lot better compared to what i have stitched. I was wondering the same thing about the cropping of the nadir as i did what you may have done. "Apply to all images" and i was thinking since i was handholding the nadir shot, it could once in a while be offsetted thus the offset of the cropping when apply to all images in PTGui.

I'll try out the viewpoint correction tutorial you have mention. It was also your tutorial on the masking way of doing the nadir that got me to keep trying to perfect this setup of mine i have using the FC-E8 as i really like the way PTGui stitches the nadir into the final equirectangular image. The usual way for me was using Eric's technique (eric from fromparis.com) by way of making the stitched equi image, create 6 sided cube using pano2qtvr then overlapping them using layers then move it into place, adjust contrast etc to match then save them into a single layer and then back to pano2qtvr to recreate the equi image. phew...a lot more work with a lot more images.

John Houghton
09-19-2008, 02:00 PM
Handholding the nadir shot should make no difference to the image circle positioning on the sensor. The lens is fixed firmly to the camera (hopefully) so the imaging is unaffected by the camera position. .

John

etegration
09-19-2008, 03:27 PM
Handholding the nadir shot should make no difference to the image circle positioning on the sensor. The lens is fixed firmly to the camera (hopefully) so the imaging is unaffected by the camera position. .

John


i see what you mean John. So what do you think is affecting the cropping in PTGui? shouldn't it simply follows what i crop in the first image and apply to all other images in terms of area and not move the "marching ants" boundary?

John Houghton
09-19-2008, 11:47 PM
You need to investigate why the image is not centered on the same point of the sensor for all the images. Something has physically shifted between taking the last horizontal shot and the handheld shot. For example, does the lens rattle if you shake it? That might indicate that there are lens elements able to move about in an uncontrolled fashion.

Fortunately, PTGui can handle the images once you are aware that there is a problem. You need to shift the crop circle on the wayward image so that it correctly aligns with the actual image circle. You should also elect to have individual shift parameters for that image via the Lens Parameters tab. The optimization needs to include these shift parameters, along with the shift parameters for the horizontal images.

John

etegration
09-21-2008, 10:22 AM
You need to investigate why the image is not centered on the same point of the sensor for all the images. Something has physically shifted between taking the last horizontal shot and the handheld shot. For example, does the lens rattle if you shake it? That might indicate that there are lens elements able to move about in an uncontrolled fashion.

Fortunately, PTGui can handle the images once you are aware that there is a problem. You need to shift the crop circle on the wayward image so that it correctly aligns with the actual image circle. You should also elect to have individual shift parameters for that image via the Lens Parameters tab. The optimization needs to include these shift parameters, along with the shift parameters for the horizontal images.

John


Nothing is loose, that's for sure however, reading your post ib shifting the crop circle on only the nadir image. It causes a lot of errors when i do that. Any ideas?

Could you list your steps?

Currently, what i do, import 3 shots, yes i changed to taking 120 degrees per shot with the above setup using both the upper and lower rails. Then a handheld nadir.

Nadir edited in PS using your method of masking then save as tiff, import it into PTGui too.

Crop, set FOV and let it stitch.

John Houghton
09-22-2008, 02:17 AM
Crop, set FOV and let it stitch.

If you leave PTGui to its own devices then you cannot expect a good stitch when you have a handheld nadir. I first optimize the horizontal shots only (normally, after applying a template to set up lens and crop parameters). Then I optimize the nadir image alone, with control points on the flat floor - first a normal optimization and then with the viewpoint option switched on. The panorama can then be stitched. Usually, PTGui will do a good job, but if necessary I will generate a two full equirectangulars containing (1) the nadir only and (2) all the other images. I merge these with the help of PTEditor to extract nadir views, but you can use Pano2VR or generate cubic tiles with Pano2QTVR.

John

etegration
09-22-2008, 12:23 PM
If you leave PTGui to its own devices then you cannot expect a good stitch when you have a handheld nadir. I first optimize the horizontal shots only (normally, after applying a template to set up lens and crop parameters). Then I optimize the nadir image alone, with control points on the flat floor - first a normal optimization and then with the viewpoint option switched on. The panorama can then be stitched. Usually, PTGui will do a good job, but if necessary I will generate a two full equirectangulars containing (1) the nadir only and (2) all the other images. I merge these with the help of PTEditor to extract nadir views, but you can use Pano2VR or generate cubic tiles with Pano2QTVR.

John


I'm just not getting it and trying this http://www.ptgui.com/examples/vptutorial.html again and again did not help as much as i wished it to. This is the latest try out. http://tinyurl.com/4pxepd

More try out tomorrow. I did some adjustment on the NN3 upper rails and some tests in my room again seem to have better-ed the setup. Try it out tomorrow outdoors. Thanks a lot John for the patience and guidance.

etegration
09-22-2008, 12:50 PM
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239/smoothimages/panorama_forums/fc-e8_coolpix5000_nn_sph-1.jpg



looking back at this and comparing the below.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2679814603_2d4c07c0a8_o.jpg

from http://lx2diary.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/lx2-and-vr-photographypart-1/

The nodal point is def correct.

etegration
09-23-2008, 06:34 AM
The images above do in fact have the NPP position correct. Unfortunately you do not with your own set up.
When you do have it correct your nadir/tripod will look complete with a perfectly "round" Nodal Ninja knob.

Shooting outside in the light will make it a lot easier to see. If shoot 3 shots at 120 degrees you will have a three intersecting "pie" slices making up the Nadir/tripod footprint.
Not dissimilar to this shot of the NN180 footprint.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239/smoothimages/panorama_forums/nn180_full_footprint.jpg

It will NOT look exactly the same but the idea is similar and a perfect round (Knob) circle should be the final result with the NN3 Panohead.

Aussie Ninja


Hi AN, i saw this and tried it out for a while on the NN180 thread. not able to attain that for the time being.

I manage to get better results after getting a smaller tripod head but a question linger. i have the following preview in PTGui's Panorama Editor...which made the nadir look really good and seemed that i am doing everything right...

http://i33.tinypic.com/1zr14lv.jpg

so i begin the stitch process only to get this:

http://i33.tinypic.com/k3vz43.jpg

i tried using with and withouth Point View optimisation, it's the same "bad" results.

John Houghton
09-23-2008, 10:47 AM
So exactly what did you do between the preview screenshot and generating the output? You must have done something to destroy the levelling.

John

etegration
09-23-2008, 11:13 AM
So exactly what did you do between the preview screenshot and generating the output? You must have done something to destroy the levelling.

John


nothing at all. It was optimised and the panorama editor showed as what i have posted above then immediately "Create Panorama" and the result is as posted 2nd image.

John Houghton
09-23-2008, 03:35 PM
The only explanation I can think of is that it's a blending effect, with some images being ignored as being surplus to requirements as full 360x180 coverage is obtained with the other images. I would be happy to investigate if you can make images and project file available.

John

etegration
09-23-2008, 11:24 PM
The only explanation I can think of is that it's a blending effect, with some images being ignored as being surplus to requirements as full 360x180 coverage is obtained with the other images. I would be happy to investigate if you can make images and project file available.

John


are here http://moonshine.homedns.org:2655/pano/fullscreens/temp/john/

The files are

I believe it is a case of too much overlap. This camera lens combination creates a larger than 180 degree image circle and only requires a maximum of three shots to cover the complete sphere. Should you wish to include the hand held nadir you will need to add an Alpha Channel Mask so that only enough shows to cover the tripod/shadow area or do basically the same thing be reducing the "Blend Priority" from 100 to say 50 and be sure that the control points on only set on flat ground surfaces.

Aussie Ninja


i've tried using the blend piority following the tutorial from PTGUI's viewpoint tutorial page but to no success.